OK I will reply again because you seem so likable and sincere.

But I am not sure what to say, because I can't understand most of your English.

* Rock n roll does not =DIY punk/ hardcore. I don't claim to know what rock n roll is. Punk is not really a style of Rock.

*. I think you don't understand that diy punk is a social movement that exists, with buildings, histories, families, groups of people, landmarks etc. it is. If you had to face these people and places, you couldn't call it a gesture . These people don't all agree about all aspects of punk, but they know what it is.

You think it is some spirit. Yes it has a spirit, but many other things have that spirit too. So that spirit is not particularly punk.
Every diy punk knows what punk is. This seems strange to you because you think it is just an attitude, a gesture, an expression.

* RE:rules/bible

you are creating a strawman. What rules? What bible? When I said my name was jonny 9, why didn't you accuse me of making rules? When I called you Sarch-why didn't you accuse me of writing a law book or dictionary? if I say I am not Chinese? am I making rules? Every culture and community has taboos, codes, and customs, freedom is not found in the refusal of these. Actually we cant make art without them.

* why do you insist to define the issue in terms of China? It does not matter where they are from. There are DIY punk bands in most countries (outside of Africa), including Nepal, Japan, Argentina, and Indonesia. There are culture industries everywhere.

* if we work something to give away for free, and someone comes and copies it and sells it, how should i feel? We have the right to criticize others about specific things. If others speak for me, i have the right to criticize what they say. Criticism is not blind condemnation. Maybe you should ask if a refusal to judge others is actually more elitist than not judging them at all.

* you speak in totally abstract terms. As if nothing exists, until you speak of the band, then, suddenly real subjective people with real feelings exist for you.

###I think you should read your words, and ask yourself if there is anything in what you wrote which would be unacceptable to the owners on Nike, KFC, Hollywood, Mtv or Levi's? No, the culture industry loves your view. It says "We are all equal and everything is ok, and tolerance is a virtue"-meanwhile, outside our doors, we are not equal, the culture industry keeps working, and real things and places are commercialized and turned into a desert. ###

* why do you believe music is just about expression? The music I am talking about is also about relationships.

* a lot of people work hard and are passionate. Including idiots and murderers.

Sarchh

I just reply to you because you said the best things, though you seem to be very confused. After this, I am finished here, because this bores me.

"Those people who loves freedom despise the rules,so who has the rights to define anything" Lack of definition and lack of rule is not freedom-it is the slavery of living in other people's space. Freedom is social it means making your own rules together with other people-, without bosses, rules that reflect your struggles and reality.

"Sorry,it is the current circumstance of china′culture industry,it is just there,whatever you like it or not.It is weird that we wish them to fight for the rock-roll and voice for the rock-roll on one hand,but we ignore how they survive in the fucking real wold on the other hand,a world murder dreams."

I agree with you about this culture industry. But if my culture is for sale, I will do something against that. Actually thats what DIY hardcore is, isn't it?

And I don't want anyone to be a voice for anything. They can do whatever they want. And it is "the culture of not selling selling yourself" that they are trying to sell!

And I ABSOLUTELY DON'T IGNORE HOW MUSICIANS SURVIVE. I think about it everyday. Everybody must sell themselves in some way. We must live in 2 worlds at once.

The question is how to do that? where are the limit?, which things are you willing to sell? and who is who? The medium is the message.

It is the refusal to have this conversation that is the biggest problem !
You seem to be against having this conversation?
You just want to continue the escapism, but that is the problem.

@ chibbles, My comment was for people who understand what punk is (ie. about 8 people in Kunming) and its not a "in your face intensity" and panda/midi music festival is not DIY. Re-beijing cooment, Beijing scene should take some responsibility for the sad state of affairs.

Everything else in what you wrote is a straw man (naval gazing) or an unreasonable request (what is latin culture anyway? can't summit up in a blog comment?) Sorry that you don't know what punk is, the ramones and patti smith were punk pre-1979, not anymore. I like them though, just I like plenty of other music. Anyway, punk is not a style of music, especially now.

"HATERS" = not a word that means anything to punx. Wrong culture/wrong language. Try again.

But should I feel sorry that I am am annoyed that non-punk bands are constantly called punk by the media?

@ Gianni, NO, thats not even close to all, why don't you address the points I made?

These comments will fall on deaf ears for most Gokunmingers, but the punx will understand:

What a fucking mystery. They talk about being not commercial, but as far as I can tell .they are poseurs. They play ridiculous, commercial, alienating festivals, over priced shows, do (hipsterish) photoshoots, and, well, are from the Beijing scene. They said their sound used to be punk and now is more dark? what? -again showing they don't know much about what punk is. Morne, Estranged, Amebix, anyone?

The only difference between them and the other shitty Chinese hipster rock bands is that they can actually play, and with passion. They sound good. But I don't see them as a truly independent band. The international underground rock scene doesn't know who they are. Don't look for them In MRR or playing a squat in Italy..