@Tonyaod

For someone who is against racism you are extraordinarily persistent in defending the right of employers to discriminate against non-white people.

You may not think that racist employment advertisements should be forbidden but most countries around the world, including, as I have repeatedly pointed out, China, have made them unlawful. If, as you say, you are against racism, why do you have a such a problem with that?

If you are consistent I guess you believe laws against racist ads should be repealed in China and everywhere. Do you?

cloud the ad has been rephrased and there's no mention to "white skin" anymore, there's no conflict now with chinese law or similar, gokm cannot do more about it....of course racism is still on and it's unacceptable in 2013 anywhere in the world. Tony, I think as a foreigner try to wake up consciences about that is a good individual battle, especially for people who are teachers here and deal with teenagers. There's no imperialism in it because a sane society would expect and hope that, as a contribute from somebody coming from a different background. A society that doesn't want any interference does not issue visas. But anyway finally everybody has the right to engage (or not engage) in anything he likes.

@cloudtrapezer

You are still consistently missing my point. Whether discrimination is right or wrong is a matter of culture and personal opinion, it would be wrong for me to impose my values upon a society in which I am a guest. In the United State there is a healthy Muslim and Hindu community, one views cows as scared while the other views swine as dirty; the consumption of either is considered immoral. Does that mean we should outlaw eating beef and pork as immoral in the US?

Regarding the Chinese labor law:
Article 7 states:Labourers shall have the right to participate in, and organize, trade unions in accordance with the law.

Article 8 Labourers shall take part in democratic management or negotiate with the employing units on an equal footing about protection of the legitimate rights and interests of labourers through the assembly of staff and workers or their congress or other forms as provided by law.

So under these provisions, I should be able to form a union protesting the low pay as was discussed in previous threads, I have a right to participate in management decisions through a democratic means. What are the odds of any of these happening.

To say that something is unlawful or that a law exists in China is to be oblivious to Chinese culture and ways of doing things. There was an article I read which I don't recall the source about "ruling by law" and "ruling under the law". Ruling by law means using the law as a tool through selective enforcement as a way to modify behavior as is the case in Korea. It is not illegal to purchase an import vehicle, but any that do will face a tax audit. This "ruling by law" culture is prevalent in many Asian countries. Laws here are written mostly for show, as a sign of approval or disapproval while tactically accepting it or not accepting it. This is commonly referred to as "reading the tea leaves".

The academic argument between you and I is that you are superficially looking at the ad as an offense to your sensibilities therefor you cite Chinese law as an argument for censorship while I, see this in a great cultural context of accepted social behavior and that laws in China do not carry the same meaning as they do in Western countries. What I feel or believe is right is irrelevant to the issue. Again, in my social circle, how I believe IS relevant because I have a choice, I will not tolerate bigotry and I can choose not to associate myself with these people, however, in there greater context of Chinese society and their beliefs, rightly or wrongly, it is theirs and I have no say. Unless I decide to join their society, it is not my place to dictate what is right or wrong, only to share my beliefs.

"If you are consistent I guess you believe laws against racist ads should be repealed in China and everywhere. Do you?"

How did you come to this conclusion? Racist ads should be removed from the US as that is where I am from and the accepted behavior of my society and laws against discrimination should be kept in place. However, I am not a member of Chinese society and therefor it is up to them to decide how they want to proceed. To cite relevant Chinese law is irrelevant as we know laws in China are created as a tool to manage the behavior of the masses as opposed to providing a fair and legal framework for all citizens to follow as a way to level the playing field. To keep or repeal laws in China is akin to saying painting a sports car red would make it go faster. It may APPEAR to be faster but we all know the color of a car does not affect it's performance.

All this academic debate has been vastly stimulating, haven't had this type of argument since my college days. Looking forward to your continued response.

Cheers~

Please don't come the old China hand. We all know that China has problems enforcing the law, that some laws are mainly for show, that it has many bad laws, that many people in China hold racist views.

None of these are valid reasons for flouting a thoroughly decent law which you said you are happy to see enforced elsewhere. A law, furthermore, that is a corrollary of the Confucian maxim　己所不欲,勿施于人- what you don't want done to you, don't do to others. I take it as axiomatic that nobody wants to be discriminated against.

I find the implication that racism is somehow inherent in Chinese culture patronizing and offensive. Claiming to defend the Chinese against cultural imperialism you seem to be simultaneously attacking them.

The question at issue here is whether GoKunming should allow openly racist job advertisements. I say no. You say yes. I hope the editors agree with me. In this case, the offending words were removed by the advertisers themselves after the controversy was pointed out to them.

@tonyaod, i like your perspective, "engage in a cultural sharing and opening up their eyes to another perspective".
Please remember that @cloudtrapper has his opintion/singular perspective and we are all entitled to it.

@cloudtrapezer

You make arguments without backing them up with logic so that it is difficult for me to address specifics, we are now going in circles; you still have not addressed most of my arguments. Restating your beliefs and making claims regarding my arguments without making your case makes me wonder if you have objectively evaluated all that has been said.

The Confusian maxim you quoted is interesting since it does give me some insight towards you logical thinking. I AM a subscriber to the golden rule therefore I personally do not discriminate against others, however, this not materially relavent because you are assuming the poster believes discrimination is bad and does not want to be descriminated against. Perhaps he believes that he being discriminated is the norm, it is acceptable for him to be discriminated against therefor it is also perfectly acceptable for him to discriminate against others. In this case he is still following Confusian teachings.

The greater issue is not whether racist ads should be posted or removed by the moderator but rather of the freedom of speech. What you propose is that the moderator use western sensibilities to liberally censor any speech that is deemed offensive. The problem I have with that is:
1. The rule should uniformly apply to all offensive and objectionable material in the forum, not just discrimination
2. Who determines what the universally agreed upon immoral acts are?
3. Censorship does not solve anything, it only buries it and allows it to grow and fester.

Yes, the poster had changed his ad after it was brought to his attention, however, employing your methods, the ad would've been deleted immediately without the poster knowing why and very likely he will do it again in the future. It is precisely because we had this open and candid discussion that he realized that discrimination is an unacceptable part of western society and that he should not engage in it if he wishes to interact with us.

I'll leave it up to those that have been following the debate since the beginning to draw their own conclusions from my arguments. Since this topic has been debated to death, I'll no longer respond unless there is something new to contribute or to address any specifics you bring up that has not already been covered.

I'll now turn over the mike.

Have a great weekend everybody!

Cheers~

"It is precisely because we had this open and candid discussion that he realized that discrimination is an unacceptable part of western society and that he should not engage in it if he wishes to interact with us."

Doubt it. He may have learned not be so up front about this particular form of discrimination otherwise he won't get to post his ad, but its pretty clear what he is after and I'm sure he will select the candidate he wants.

Many ways to skin a cat
"1. The rule should uniformly apply to all offensive and objectionable material in the forum, not just discrimination"

As the OP, this was my main point. Rules is rules but at least they should be applied an an even- handed manner. I'm thinking most people would go along with that

@dazzer

I fully respect his right to voice his opinions and that is why I am engaging in a vigorous and healthy debate with him using logic and rational, at the same time sharing my views with the greater expat community for them to judge, instead of resorting to name calling and flaming.

My logic might not be as sound as they are when they were in my head, but thats why we have debates, to expose any fallacies in our thinking. I have laid out my arguments and reasoning, please use the same to point out my errors.

Respectfully yours.

As always, cheers~

@chingis

Amen to that!

He might not have actually learn but I can always hope, right? ;)

Confucius said 三人行,必有我师。 I'm sorry to say this hasn't been the case for me in this discussion.