@ Geezer
I can't use the venues names coz of obvious legal reasons. Duh!
Coffe in the commodity market is traded by metric tons as most other items there, sorry about that.

It seems this is all about English spelling, grammar and punctuation rather than about the coffee subject.

Anyway this is fantastic, I rest my case and the question mark that is challenging your understanding of the last column,-with it.

I guess our conversation, dear Geezer should end here so that we both won't get blocked. I got the response I expected.

I apologize for upsetting you.

Some correction, about the commodities. I just saw it depends where you bid plus the option in several places for both pounds or metric tons.
-C'est la vie-

You can trade Coffee futures at

-NYSE Euronext (Euronext),

-New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) and

-Tokyo Grain Exchange (TGE).

Euronext Robusta Coffee (No. 409) futures prices are quoted in dollars per metric ton and are traded in lot sizes of 10 tonnes .

-NYMEX Coffee futures are traded in units of 37500 pounds (17 metric tons) and contract prices are quoted in dollars per pound.

-TGE Arabica Coffee futures prices are quoted in yen per bag and are traded in lot sizes of 50 bags (3450 kilograms).

-TGE Robusta Coffee futures are traded in units of 5000 kilograms and contract prices are quoted in yen per kilogram.

Geezer, thanks for the correction in error of USD cents versus dollars. I overlooked this initially. You sound like an international business expert, I might have to take you up on your advice some time if I have to conduct anymore business in this city. Instead of turning this forum into a shit slinging contest why don't you actually calculate for me how much a cup of coffee, with overheads and profit costs? Why don't we go back to how much coffee costs across the city? For example, the half sugar Taiwanese cafe in Kexue Lu costs 35RMB as do alot of other Chinese cafe's.

Did you ever here of the product called a 'loss leader'? That get's customers through the door instead of being the price of a main meal? Sounds like coffee is brewing. Those bottomless cups in the US who pays for that?

Sure it might have been two co-incidences in one week where two separate cafe's decided to miscalculate the price of my meals and coffee.

Coming back to comment about 'slave labour'. I agree with your remarks, yes slaves are not paid a wage and slavery is illegal in China. How about you index the 24000RMB annual salary of cafe workers to the price of an average apartment in Kunming lets say 1 million RMB for a 100 sqm property (also just an example, my place cost 3 million for 300 sqm near Xishan, but then again I have no idea about business. I bought it using my salary as an English accounting teacher).

How many years would that mortgage take to pay back without interest? 41.66 year mortgage?

You are correct, slavery is illegal in China. The masses are forced by 'standard wages' to rent for their entire lives, just like self-righteous foreign bloggers who keep complaining about the price of rent on forums just like this. I may have had an error on USD vs. cents per pound, but you missed the whole point of this forum...overpriced coffee.

Also there is big talk of 'overheads'. I would challange any cafe owner in Kunming to explain to be exactly what their 'overheads' or operating expenses are? They usually employ a whole tribe to stand around the counter and talk jazz all day, while the customer has to scream out to get their attention (point taken Tiger Tiger; re; cafe not being busy all day long). Maybe they could sweep the floor or clean the cigarette soot build up on the cornius of the roof, but where would the fun be in good old hard work. Are the workers paid anymore?

Overheads are a fixed cost not related to profit. Tiger tiger is correct, but forgot that cafe's at least in Kunming sell more than coffee. As Dudeson's point's out to you, Starbucks pay's insurance and probably an internationally recognised quality assurance system that ensures that the coffee machine is clean for use every time they pour a cup, or certified coffee free from pesticide or herbicide residues instead of buying locally sold coffee that is not tested. Unlike yourself I am not going to parade my education and experience, but let's just say I know a little about the international food industry.

Lastly, Geezer do you have an actual experience building an international company? Do you currently have multiple passive income streams? You have seem to have gone into academia to teach others and also on online blogs about accounting.

I wish you well in your teaching career and hope you refrain from calling your student's 'hoots'.

Geezer, thanks for the correction in error of USD cents versus dollars. I overlooked this initially. You sound like an international business expert, I might have to take you up on your advice some time if I have to conduct anymore business in this city. Instead of turning this forum into a shit slinging contest why don't you actually calculate for me how much a cup of coffee, with overheads and profit costs? Why don't we go back to how much coffee costs across the city? For example, the half sugar Taiwanese cafe in Kexue Lu costs 35RMB as do alot of other Chinese cafe's.

Did you ever here of the product called a 'loss leader'? That get's customers through the door instead of being the price of a main meal? Sounds like coffee is brewing. Those bottomless cups in the US who pays for that?

Sure it might have been two co-incidences in one week where two separate cafe's decided to miscalculate the price of my meals and coffee.

Coming back to comment about 'slave labour'. I agree with your remarks, yes slaves are not paid a wage and slavery is illegal in China. How about you index the 24000RMB annual salary of cafe workers to the price of an average apartment in Kunming lets say 1 million RMB for a 100 sqm property (also just an example, my place cost 3 million for 300 sqm near Xishan, but then again I have no idea about business. I bought it using my salary as an English accounting teacher).

How many years would that mortgage take to pay back without interest? 41.66 year mortgage?

You are correct, slavery is illegal in China. The masses are forced by 'standard wages' to rent for their entire lives, just like self-righteous foreign bloggers who keep complaining about the price of rent on forums just like this. I may have had an error on USD vs. cents per pound, but you missed the whole point of this forum...overpriced coffee.

Also there is big talk of 'overheads'. I would challange any cafe owner in Kunming to explain to be exactly what their 'overheads' or operating expenses are? They usually employ a whole tribe to stand around the counter and talk jazz all day, while the customer has to scream out to get their attention (point taken Tiger Tiger; re; cafe not being busy all day long). Maybe they could sweep the floor or clean the cigarette soot build up on the cornius of the roof, but where would the fun be in good old hard work. Are the workers paid anymore?

Overheads are a fixed cost not related to profit. Tiger tiger is correct, but forgot that cafe's at least in Kunming sell more than coffee. As Dudeson's point's out to you, Starbucks pay's insurance and probably an internationally recognised quality assurance system that ensures that the coffee machine is clean for use every time they pour a cup, or certified coffee free from pesticide or herbicide residues instead of buying locally sold coffee that is not tested. Unlike yourself I am not going to parade my education and experience, but let's just say I know a little about the international food industry.

Lastly, Geezer do you have an actual experience building an international company? Do you currently have multiple passive income streams? You have seem to have gone into academia to teach others and also on online blogs about accounting.

I wish you well in your teaching career and hope you refrain from calling your student's 'hoots'.

also thanks Tom69 for your comment. Yeah, just keep getting tired of asking for the correct price as per the menu price. Hence why I raised it as a forum.

continuing Dudeson's blogg re; charity:

A few (organisations linked to coffee in Kunming) think it is 'charitable' that organise 'English camp' for Chinese kids where they teach JC/ heathangelical philosophy in a inner hall without their parent's knowledge (or government's).

Yeah really charitable. Secret brainwashing event's for children who just want to learn English. If you were really doing charity you would have time to incorporate it into your business plan (Geezer, do these activities belong in business plans?).

If these businesses really operated under 'market forces' as some people have suggested they wouldn't be 'saving' a whole village who stay behind the cafe counter and the rest in the kitchen talking all day except lunch hour. I don't mind giving to charity as long as I know who it is for and what the organisation is actually doing. I do not support foreign heathangelical 'front's', who deceive children least of all through the price of my coffee, which is really a subsidy for heathangelical ego operations in Yunnan's rural areas. Because you are relatively richer with a more Azure shade of eye colour you can tell Yunnan's rural population which G-d to believe in?

They forgot that there were 'legal' and 'open' missionaries here about 500 years ago up until 1949, and what an impact on Chinese mortality all this JC has done? Don't worry I do not think the government will throw you to the lion's, or reveal you are here as an English teacher or cafe owner in disguise, but really up to something else on the side.

I think they really don't care.

In the end you have about 800 million lowly paid people in China to 'save', whether they live in a village or city. These people work to just survive and their destitute and low wage's help to pay for your all Western dream with cheap plasma televisions, a home in the suburb's, SUV's, and that laptop you keep blogging on day and night, and other amusements such as stroke your heathangelical ego at night as you count the brownie points you get from a penny saving of the poor from your home heathengelical institute of bogus crap back in the West, while you still pocket 1000's a month off their backs of deceived Chinese you are 'saving'. What an ego stroke, I am G-d, whatever comes out of my mouth is true, listen to me little village person. How about a job in a cafe in the 'big smoke' where I will pay you enough to survive, but I will drive a nice car, and photograph you to put on my website and make more hearts strings sway so I can keep selling more alcohol and fries. Stomach that! Worse than mouse poo in your coffee.

HAHAH ! I got a little bored reading this! But i will add that there is 28 grams in a oz. 16 oz in a pound soooooo —28 times 16 is?????448!

hahahah....448 grams in a pound!

... are we in Kunming to discuss the price of coffee or enjoy every day life on a chill and relaxed note?

I don't see the point in discussing this but here it goes:
On topic:
Staff usually cannot make those errors if there is a computer system with the right amounts in them (no hand-written bills). Not having the right amounts in them is a classic tale in many cafe's and bars. Usually employees cannot change amounts without the software password. Either management is slacking or they try to make an extra buck for themselves (correcting the amount in the system at the end of the month and pocketing the difference - with no owner the wiser).
Often and both cases causing the staff to be made to look the culprit for they are the ones delivering the bill.
It's on the scales whether it's accident or intention. Don't like it? -go to a different cafe or bar, plenty in KM and a few Starbucks too :)

PS: If you want real stress, go drive a car here or try to leave a parking space when someone double parked you and left their car to get a coffee. I would pay 35 Yuan just to see them get clamped or towed. And downtown parking is 10 yuan per 30 minutes. Better drink fast!

Overcharging is common practice here. Even/esp with local places. As suggested it is not the owner, unless the owner is on the cashier desk. Every chow place we go to my wife always checks the bill. It is often wrong, plausible deniability is then applied, but not often an appology.
If you are the host it may be seen as being mean to check the bill. Which is why people try it to cheat on the bill. Hoping you won't check. I am sure that most foreign owners would be angry to know that their staff are cheating. One bar owner once said, you will never stop your staff cheating, you would go mad trying. If you did they would go and work somewhere else where they can earn more money. As a bar owner, all he hoped to do was to keep it to managable levels. Win win with chinese charachteristics.

I always found the Wicker basket staff to be helpful and friendly and honest, but that is not to say there can be exceptions. The French Cafe staff is so consistently rude and discourteous ad the bread there so over-rated that I have not eaten anything from there in two or three years. I have had over-pricing situations as well but not enough to get to hysterical over. Seem to be isolated instances but they can piss you off. Like the time I order a ham and cheese sandwich at a place on Yun DA campus and the guy assured it it was "western ham". It said 28 for RMB for the sandwich and fries. First off the sandwich was that Chinese spam stuff, but I think the guy really believed that was western ham, so I cut some slack there. He was just an idiot is all, forgivable. But the bill was for over 40 RMB with no drink, and he said that the fries were separate and were 15 RMB. I said the menu says sandwich and fries for 28, and he said that that was a mistake and they will fix the menu someday. NOw I feel he is jsut a dishonest punk, not as forgivable. Jeesh. All you do is pay the bill and just not go back and try to have a little sense of humor about stuff lies that, but it is not easy.