1. Western musicians = true sense of music? Chinese musicians = commercial gigs?

This is not only highly offensive but just outright retarded and needs no further comment.

2. What have you personally done...?
Marc I've been playing here in KMG for about three years with many different combos. I think I can honestly say I have never seen you support any other band around here. While I (personally) and a lot of the musicians in town constantly go see each other play and get together for different projects and different line-ups, Chinese and Western people alike, you roll in late for the Monday jam at the Mask and start playing with your band.
Ask yourself that question please.

3.Now you got your own thing started and think everyone MUST be there or be a traitor to the cause? Where were you last year for the Camel band jams? Why don't you show up 10:30 at The Mask Mondays and join whoever is on stage? I appreciate the idea of a Blues Workshop but we all know perfectly well that not too many musicians round here wanna play the Blues, so why don't you open that up a bit to really see something interesting happen, to contribute to the growth of KMG music?

4. KMG music sucks so bad? I haven't heard anyone say that really, is that your opinion? We have the Rednecks, the Funk Assembly, Hell Yeah, The Apes, The Gate, Lao Han, SiGangLi and many more. Good music to me. Have you seen these bands recently? I consider myself very lucky to be able to have a good time watching a good show almost every weekend.

5. I'm also in the lucky position that I don't need to rely on Monkey Shows and can be very picky and very expensive whenever I choose to play one. Not everyone can. I wholeheartedly agree on a certain gentleman's agreement concerning the money, but as has been said, there's always gonna be someone who can/will play for less.

The key is quality, you do a great job, people will call you again and instead of playing 3 crap shows you play one that pays off properly (and yes, there IS some understanding of quality performing around here).

6. "All it takes is one visit to the security bureau and the party is over."
What are you, new?

Sorry to be honest Marc, I was actively looking forward to join that Blues thing, but before you accuse "every foreign so-called musician that sets foot in Kunming" you have to first take a look around and at yourself.
Show up to some other people's gigs and have a chat. There's good music in KMG.

Ian

guys, your music "union" won't be a problem, as long as it is not official, go ahead and do it. You are not going to get out of being exploited, so get exploited at a better rate and take the extra free time and money it gets you and put your energy into the non-monkey show music scene.

Don't listen to Marc, who equated working class musicians playing music without papers to factory owners skirting environmental law to make more profits.

Lots of expats are going to harangue you with their naive, almost religious, views about "the market", but don't let them stop you.

Bu the way, English teachers need exactly the same thing, but I think Kunming musicians can get it done way easier since there are less transients among their ranks. Best of luck.

And yes the KM music scene totally sucks, can't believe there are those who haven't heard that. But that's not condemnation, it should be given massive credit for even existing in a place like Kunming.

I did not criticize any single band. What I criticize is the status quo of the music scene in Kunming. If you think that 5 bands on a Friday night and 3 on a Saturday night gigging and one open-mic per week is an acceptable music scene, then there is definetly something very wrong. I have been running an open-mic for the past 6 years, and have put in my share of making a contribution to Kunming. I went to every Camel jam there was until they were cancelled due to drunken disorderliness by players and loudness reported to the police. Then Movida took over and I refused to participate, because once again, it was approached commercially. As their posters stated: "Play with the best musicians in Kunming, Our partner venues", etc. What a crock! Why can't a jam be run for the sake of a jam, for the sake of the music? Why is does there always have to be a financial motive behind it?

What I want to know, is when are the bands of Kunming and the current monkey gig regime going to wake up and start doing something positive for this city? You get 1000 a pop for a monkey gig but you get nothing for doing an open mic? Still interested? Probably not. In terms of the blues jam, it is purely blues. The Gate is at point now, only through hard work that it can host the jam. It's for the public and for people that want to practice. But if you're not interested in playing the blues, then it won't be something that would interest you.

Our responsibility first and foremost is to make a contribution to this city. But up until now, I see NO ONE doing anything except to argue about how much god damn money they want from a monkey show. Please, enough...

Start an open-mic Ian, I promise you, I will definetly come. I am not joking, I am serious. Go to the Bridge, Camel, Nashville tomorrow and start negotiations with them. Will you do that? The band will come and play tunes, will work hard on our music at your open-mic. This is what defines a music scene. Chinese musicians, they are the ones who work the toughest. It is only fair to force the commerical enterprises into accepting them, not the foreigners giving into the commerical enterprises and therefore excluding the Chinese. This is their country, not ours.

Somebody, anybody, please startup a new open-mic. or jam., and then after that one is started, go start another one. Cancel all the precious band gigs, cancel all the stupid monkey shows, and get people who've never met before on stage playing. Forget who can play good or bad, or likes or doesn't like jazz or rock or blues or whatever. This is what Kunming needs more than anything right now. As a guy already stated, it is just a matter of time before they crack down on us anyway. To be honest, I'm kind of looking forward to that crack down. Maybe some serious positive changes will come as a result.

David from the Great Apes here...Why in the world is free form jamming the only hallmark of a good music scene? I like a variety of musical expressions that include open jams, open mics, and themed jams (jazz, blues, reggae, etc.). My personal opinion is that I wish more bands got their shit together and practiced more often. Personally, my opinion is that the scene would greatly benefit from more original compositions and a lot more attention to detail in their live performances. Other cities' scenes have a broader base of musicians so the vocabulary at jams is at a higher level, therefore its a lot more interesting to play in and listen to. Here, unfortunately for now, the level of "strap on an instrument and just play" musicianship is a bit narrow in scope and low in ability (DEFINITELY including myself here :)). (I think) Scenes greatly benefit from ass-kicking outfits like the Rednecks and Funk Assembly who pay attention to what they are doing. Why is this regressive, part of a regime, or pandering to some hypothetical undesirable musical environment?
Many inquisitive and competent Chinese musicians in this town are in contract bands that play 7 nights a week and are not available to play for nothing. Countless Chinese players have cycled through the open jam circuit over the years that I wish I had a chance to play with more often, but they made a decision to play for a living...which means sign their lives away to musical slavery at some local steampunk themed drunk tank.

My wife (then I, after we got hitched) and a friend ran a pretty damn awesome open mic at the Movie Bar and it was just amazing how people from ALL cultures could find a way to play together. We "gave back" to the community by selling cheaper beer to musicians and their friends and basically ostracizing our more wealthy customers, for a night because my wife and I just loved to see it all happen.

Last night the Great Apes invited Lost Dream, an excellent post-rock instrumental Chinese band, to open for us and it was really great. THAT is what I've been wanting to do for a long time, but it just took a while to get it organized. I think mixed bills is a great way to "give back" (whatever the hell that means).

My gigs are precious. My band works very hard to express ourselves and I don't think we hurt anyone or anything in the process, so, Mark, I don't know what the hell you're talking about. I'm damn confident in stating that we put our hearts and souls out there on stage. We play for cheap and, frankly, only hope that the sound man knows what the hell he's doing and that a few people will get into what we love to do.
Frankly, I don't have any idea why a thread like this could get so aggressive or negative. The way to make a music scene is to play music.

I hosted an open-mic in Kunming from 2006-2012 at the Halfway House Bar, did well over 100 open-mics. It was the first and longest running open-mic in Kunming, after the shutdown of the Speakeasy. I started this open-mic because at that time there was NOTHING happening musically in Kunming, notta, zero, not a single laowai band and you were lucky to see a chinese band at all. At that time, due to the popularity of the open-mic, the mobs of patrons and musicians that come to the open-mics (sometimes 15 in one night!), the Movie Bar owner asked me to host an open-mic at that bar. I did not do that, stayed put where I was and concentrated on the Halfway House. The Movie Bar offered a free drink to all participants and as a result, the Halfway House open-mic participation dwindled. It was obvious what was happening, competition. The Halfway House did not give free drinks, which we did on purpose. So maybe it was more attractive for players to go elsewhere where extras were added. That's fine, cool another place has an open-mic. This is historical fact. I lived those years, I know, I saw it all happening before my very eyes. Yes, we would often get foreign musicians playing on stage. But the problem was, one - they were often drunk and unable to control themselves on stage, patrons were disgusted by it, or two - after they got comfy making the dough in the monkey show circuit, they no longer would come to the open-mic. Or, the open-mics were used by them as a way to practice songs for their monkey gig shows. But never once did a single one ask me: "Hey. Marc, I like this open-mic idea, and I like Kunming, I too want to help out this place. Where can I go to start up an open-mic? What can I do aside from setting up my own band, to help this very music deficient city?" No one ever once asked me this question. They just continued to establish their band and play monkey shows. Open-mic was exploited for their own interest, it's a clear exploitation, just as clear as monkey shows are one of the reasons why Kunming's music scene has not been given a fair chance to develop.

The concept of a truly multi-style jam sounds interesting, Ian, but in fact never works. It's been proven time after time. And like David says, it's has to due with level of musicianship. These types of jams within a few minutes of startup usually lead to meaningless loud noise usually caused by musicians' alchohol overconsumption and as a result, patrons leave and musicians don't come back. It would be great if musicians could prepare a little something in advance before joining a jam, but they never do. I go to the Mask on monday nights very late after I get off work for the sole purpose of taking our rehearsed material on stage for trial runs in preparation for gigs. This is how I view the purpose of open-mic, a middle ground between the rehearsal room and an actual gig. THAT is it's benefit to the musical community. If there is an opportunity to actually jam with other musicians at the open-mic and it seems like good music can be made, then I'll do it. But I for sure won't do it if it's just a themeless wall of noise. I'm am so thankful to the Mask for giving musicians this stage. Whether it be to jam or work on pre-arranged material, the purpose of the event is fulfilled, patrons stick around and listen to the music and the event thus continues to live.

We all have the responsibility to give back to the city what the city gives to us. Aside from one musician going to some other musician's gig as a show of support for local music, the already established musicians of Kunming must take the initiative to find new and innovative ways to cultivate musical talent in this city. If others feel that what I say here is offensive and considered self-righteous, then I

have no other way to explain myself and will forever be misunderstood.

As Rocket stated very clearly, the companies for their own reasons will not hire Chinese musicians. They will not hire them because of their skin color which is racial discrimination. However, in China this is not racial discrimination, it's the accepted norm. This opens up a huge and very lucrative market for foreign musicians to come to China and make loads of money at the expense of the Chinese musicians. This is pure exploitation on our part and clear discrimination on the part of the Chinese entertainment companies. So we continue to do these commericial gigs, and thus support the on-going discrimination of the Chinese musicians. Boycott! make a home for yourself in Kunming, look around at our needy music scene and think about what you can do to make a contribution to improving the situation. Basic common sense.

Marc, i really think you should go on whatever the chinese version of gokunming and give the same rant to all the chinese musicians.

The best chinese musicians in kunming play the chinese version of monkey shows, playing pop music behind a singer in a bar. They do this 7 nights a week. I have tried to play with some of these guys before but no one ever can or wants to. Playing music is their job, just like some laowai try and make it. They do 0 to help the music scene in kunming and id guess 75% of them can play circles around every laowai musician.

Motivating kunmingesse people is tough and i dont really think trying to motivate them is our responsibility. They themselves need to be eager to learn and express interest.

The best example of this i can give is from my band. I worked my ass off trying to form my band. I asked chinese players that were completely capable of playing with us but they were too busy. Eventually i found Our bass player, who was hands down the most polite, smooth, and knowledgable bass player in kunming. The guy could play and he really helped our band create a great sound. Sadly this guy had to leave after 1 year (typical in kunming) and i was left without a bass player. I had no idea who could replace him because no one had the skills of this guy. Then i remembered there was a chinese person that played bass that came to everyone of our shows and watched us right next to the stage. He loved our band and always wanted us to play more. Since i was out of options for a bassist that was appropriate for my band, I asked him if he was interested in playing with us. He was shocked when we asked him bc honestly his skill level was much lower than the previous bassist and he had no idea how to do what we created on stage. I told him if he practiced and tried his best he could play with us. He was eccstatic and could not believe it. He practiced every day and did what we told him, but he still knew there was potential to get the boot and practiced even harder.

Now he is a much better bassist and its all due to the fact he was very motivated to do better. Would this have worked if i had just gone out and given a bass to a random chinese person and told them to learn? No way!

Its all about motivation and it should not be up to us to create this motivation. Who knows where my current bassist would be skill level wise had we not motivated him. He should have motivated himself to do better but we needed to put the fire under his ass. He just never thought there was a chance he could play with us so he never practiced until i told him to.

Motivation is key. Just like learning Chinese or English. Many Chinese students use excuses why they can't learn English. With all the technology and places to go where 老外's hang out, there really is no excuse not to learn. That goes too for learning Chinese.