Hello -

I have two boys, Jack (3.5) and Nick (1.5).

Jack has been attending the Michael Allen school for about a year now...

1st, both boys were born here in China and Pu Tong Hua is their first language so teaching an English curriculum is not a problem.

What prompted this post is that I am going to pay the second years fees next Tuesday and the way this school finds every opportunity to profit from my son's education is driving me crazy.

It is not the cost so much as when I registered him they said it was rmb 700 a month and after mandatory charges for gung foo lessons, meals, after school milk, books, etc. the price is closer to rmb 1500.

Again, not a tremendous amount of money, but I am not used to this. When I sent to school they told you the cost and that was that. Further, when I paid rmb 600 for a set of books that retail for less than rmb 100 and milk that I pay rmb 2 a day for that is available across the street for rmb 1 I started to wonder if the school had my children's education as a priority or how they can profit from my children.

So my first question is this pricing / profit structure common at private schools in China / Kunming?

2nd, I am concerned about the Chinese memorize and regurgitate method of teaching vs a more Socratic system. Any thoughts on this and ways of finding out how my children are being educated.

I have heard good things about KIA, but like to keep my religion separate from education (and politics). Regarding comments I have heard about KIA discriminating against non-Christian religions, I think i get a pass on this one since we are Jewish ;-)

Any information people can share on the above and experiences they have had with other private schools Chinese or International is appreciated.

PS - I am a busy single father and do not often get out to meet other parents so if there are any social opportunities for me and the kids I would love to hear about them.

Jonathan

Hello Jonathan,

You've been in China this long and you're still not used to being gouged by 'bait and switch' sales pitches and innumerable add-on fees?

That's the standard.

Your second concern is real; I've spent (more than a decade of) time attending and teaching at Chinese schools both public and private.
If your teachers at that school are locals, then your children are not learning the socratic method. If the teachers try to use that way of learning where students interact and challenge things, they would most likely upset the parents of the local children. So, it's sort of out of the teachers' hands. The Chinese want a Chinese style education, because that's what they know.
If there are some Westerners teaching there, get your kids in those classes, and let the teacher know your concerns. They can most likely accommodate with some more interactive lessons without causing too many alarms among the Chinese staff, depending on the rigidity of the existing curriculum.

Jonathon
First - primary school through middle school education is FREE in China. Kunming is really far from Beijing - so they try to charge ludicrous fees, but it's really FREE - although you're probably here on an investor visa.

If you really want to know about this - start with the ministry of education in Beijing - check - get a letter, then bring that back to Kunming (difficult to get any politician or government official to write a letter though). In the absence of a letter - you can try the bluff - "but the Beijing office said ... blah blah blah... shall I have them call you to confirm?...blah blah blah silence"..

EDUCATIONAL TECHNIQUE
It' mostly regurgitation teaching. It's the parent's responsibility to teach the reasoning logical socratic method. If you're here for the long-term - public schools in my opinion are better - not for the education, but for the camaraderie. The expat schools tend to have 1-2 year turnover - so your kids will have difficulty making long-term friendships - ever so important to the guanxi system if they/you want them to live and survive in China as professionals.

This is the traditional style of learning dating back thousands of years - truthfully, the government doesn't want TOO much critical thinking - just as in the USA - it breeds social and political unrest. Also, deviating from the teaching norm for a government employee is career suicide - Socrates is not a particularly good example - he was forced to commit suicide, I believe.

KIA
KIA is at it's foundation, a christian-based school. There were some apologetics regarding their weekly course of christian theology - which is apparently mandatory - but I suggest you go to the source. Kids are kids and bullying, ostracism occurs everywhere for the most inane reasons.

SOCIAL OPPORTUNITIES
Can't help you there - but as your friends and contacts get to know you - they'll probably start trying to introduce this and that divorcee - Beijing is ripe with single moms - Kunming is somewhat the same.

Suggest you plan family activities with the kids - invite their school friends and parents (dutch of course).

Thank you Jonathan for starting this thread.

And loutou, I understand you have children going to public school. I'd like to know how do they adapt to the rigid one way instilling education method there? Or have they ever experienced the fun, relaxed and stimulating learning environment in the States? And do you feel comfortable to let them face the crushing stress and stifling pressure from their teachers and competitive classmates? What is the alternatives there? KIA?

The reason I want to know all these is because I am considering coming to Kunming for a long term stay starting next year. I have a boy who will be seven by then. He is in a Chinese immersion elementary school here in the States. The thought there might not be an accommodating school in Kunming has weighted heavily on my decision of going or staying.

Though I must admit I myself was educated under the unpleasant Chinese school system, but there was no choice back then, whatever harm or merit it had done to me, I somehow feel I would be doing a big disservice to my boy if to put him through what I had been.

I'd appreciate any input on this.

Primary-middle school is free in state schools, but many headmasters take bribes if the school is a bit better and parents seek it. I am not sure if education is free if you don't have a Hukou for the same city as the school is in.

However, there are many 'experimental' schools which are run as private enterprises. They will always be cost focussed, and looking to maximise profits by charging for anything.

Thank You Everyone for Your Answers -

In sum it is very disturbing to me that most of the schools here insist on teaching 'memorize and regurgitate,' the parents favor this model and the government prefers not to teach their children to 'think too much.'

I guess can get past the people I pay to educate my children being more profit driven that motivated by helping my children, but not sure this is enough to risk my children's future.

This has got me thinking about where is the best place in the world to live to give my children the best possible education public or private.

I ready a recent report from a study on the most entrepreneurial countries (I know only one measure, but I am a reformed enterpreneur so that is where I started) which listed Denmark first and Canada second before the US. Not that I think US is #1 (certainly not in education), but I am not buying their results.

Thoughts?

Jonathan

If you are not going to be here long term, it is possible that rote learning habits will be beneficial.

Here's mu 2 cents.
The eastern model is the acquisition of knowledge, the western model is the application of knowledge.
However, unless you acquire knowledge you can't apply it. Some of this knowledge must be memorised, for example the Periodic Table in chemistry.

Why are Chinese kids so good at maths (especially calculus) and chemistry? Because of rote learning.

Why are there so much growth in liberal arts degrees, and reduction in science degrees in the west. Because many schools have dropped rote learning practices and the 'hard' subjects that require more disciplined learning, and less reasoning.

I think that if they kids who acquire good learning habits and good reasoning skills (critical thinking/critical expression), they will develop strong academic capability all round. Kids can get the former in school, and the latter at home. As a parent who takes an active interest in your kids development, I think you will hit this balance. Gawd know my parents couldn't.

Spot on tiger! My concern is exactly a balance issue. I want my boy to acquire solid education which rote method is necessary and plays a rather important role, and discipline, parental guidance are both vital elements in children's education too. My plan is to have my boy studies in Kunming while I am there, and bring him back to the States when he is 14 or 15, since he doesn't have to compete for a university spot in China, I don't want him experience cutting-throat competition Chinese style. So my balance issue entails stress level, pressure intensity, enjoyable after-school activities and keeping up with his first language- English.

outsider
My kids function quite normally in their rote learning public chinese school. Again - for primary schools, it is the parents' responsibility to teach the children the art of logical thinking - which is an evolving and never-ending process. My wife and I specifically moved here because, amongst other things, we wanted the children to learn their mother tongue AND to immerse into the culture - the culture of chinese politics and personal relationships. To learn how to manage themselves and others. With class sizes often exceeding 70 students per class - they see the full spectrum of society in public schools - the good and the bad.

Initially we only used putonghua at home - but I am now slowly trying to switch to english only as the kids are now native speakers.

As for the mountains of schoolwork - that helps keep the kids out of trouble. Despite having a population roughly 5x that of the USA - the juvenile crime level here seems considerably lower - part of that is the schools keep the kids so busy, they don't have time to make trouble - so the converse of that is - if the child's grades are poor - they're probably doing something other than studying - a generally reliable meter on what your child's been up to at school.

Schools teach rote memorization - that's a "hard skill" - math, chinese, and from grade 3 onwards, english. They learn "soft skills" such as how to manage and nurture interpersonal relationships through immersion - social learning. The logical analysis part comes from parental supervision - teaching one's children through critiques of idiotic TV drivel, and the infinite frauds and thieves abundant outside the front door (or inside if you have an ayi).

It would be nice to teach the children that most people are nice and honest - but that's simply not reality. Work places are rife with cut-throat, back-stabbing interpersonal politics - regardless of USA or China. Teaching the children how to recognize and navigate those treacherous currents will prepare them for real life...at least that's our personal philosophy.

For high-school to college - we MAY send them to Japan or Europe - college - depends on their field of study. Although we believe the USA universities are still amongst the best in the world - a lot can happen in 10 years. China may move on par. Also depends on what they choose as their initial career, long-term goals, personalities, etc.

We want our children to be native-level speakers in Putonghua, English, Japanese, and at least one mainline european language - probably french, german, italian, or spanish - preference being Parisian French.

Hi Latou

I agree Mandarin essential.
English is the business lingua franca.
Japanese, especially in China. As business links with Japan are growing and most (not all) Japanese only speak Japanese.

From a career point of view, Spanish may be the best additional language to learn. Why do I say this. Spanish is the world's third language. Most of S. America use it, and China's trade links with Latin America are growing strongly.
Also German, French, Italian, Spanish (EU) and other European business people usually already speak very good English.

But be aware, not all your kids may be linguists. One of them might be a dancer, or a computer geek with no social skills (OMG!!!!). LOL