GoKunming Forums

WTF!! DD Dragon.

Dazzer (2813 posts) • 0

Don't expect anyone to keep a promise. You are not back home now. Even a contract here is worthless, in fact many are illegal by Chinese labor laws, and unenforceable.
TIC, they do things differently here.

Murdock69 (9 posts) • 0

@DAZZER
Believe me, I am not ignorant to that fact, but thank you nevertheless.

Do you know of any websites that may give me more insight into these labor laws?

nnoble (889 posts) • 0

@Murdock69 Do you have a case? If yes, gather all your paperwork - everything. Don't try and interpret Chinese law. Go over everything in your own mind. Find the responsible local government department and English speaking official. Make an appointment, be exceptionally polite and reasonable and lay everything out in front of them. If you have a case and present it clearly and reasonably - including any possible mistake or misunderstanding on your part - the chances are you will win. If you do, then come back here with the result. If it's the education department you will probably be well satisfied with the outcome.

Don't waste time on here. Good luck.

abcdabcd (428 posts) • 0

murdock, I wasn't belittling. I just really wasn't sure what the complaint was about. I've been through similar situations. Believe me.

I like nnoble's advice. I don't think that taking the attitude that "that's just the way things are in china. contracts are worthless and expect to get screwed" is a proper attitude for anyone to take.

Murdock69 (9 posts) • 0

@ abcdadcd and nnoble,

I really do not want to come of as a prick.
Nothing wrong with my job, or my school. No need for any actions, but it is always nice to be informed, isnt it?
Sorry abcdadcd, did not want to sound judgemental. Hope you understand now, any advise guys?

Dazzer (2813 posts) • 0

Comments like, ' I don't think that taking the attitude that "that's just the way things are in china. contracts are worthless and expect to get screwed" is a proper attitude for anyone to take.' are unrealistic and taken a tad out of context. Forewarned is forearmed.

A bit like saying that, "warning someone about walking around Johanaburg, drunk, at night, you can expect to get attacked," is unrealistic.

Anyone who has done business here understands that a contract here is no more than an M.O.U. Has anyone here ever tried to sue anyone? How was the experience? Does anyone here really expect transparency?

laotou (1714 posts) • 0

@murdock69
My bad - wasn't referring to your post specifically - but waaaaay up at the top beginning with @lumingke's initial thread lambasting the school for dropping the salaries by an amazing CNY 1k. Your comments actually hijacked the thread to discuss the TESP: cred's they're supposed to give you. If you want the cert - just say you want to see it and you want your cert now. There's nothing (probably) in your contract that says if/when they'll give you your cert - so just be a prick and nag and insist you want to see it NOW, since they said you already have it. The company may not be lying - just really poorly trained staff. This kind of lying "say anything to get rid of you" attitude is prevalent in Asia - not just China.

I once had HSBC HK tell me a wire transfer to myself didn't arrive - although by SWIFT rules they're supposed to accept or reject the wire within 24 hours of receipt - they'd held it for 13 days (I was busy) and tried to give me the runaraound. I had the wire information - same lazy answer - so I told them I'll just wait at the window while I call the police to report a bank robbery by the bank (and the teller), as my US bank reported the wire received by HSBC. Whether the teller is lazy, doesn't know, poorly trained - don't care - they can explain it to the police - I suggested she get her manager to see me before I make the call as once the police get involved - it's really ugly for the bank (cuz I'll also call the media - HK media love a scandal...paparazzi).

So, if the TESOL is yours and your contract doesn't state anything - you can just be the prick and demand what's yours - however as the TESOL is part of your employment contract - I actually think you're legally in error to demand the TESOL before your contract is complete. The company can legally hold your TESOL until you complete your contract as the two items appear to be legally linked - however you can as for a COPY or merely to see the ORIGINAL, merely to verify their existence - that's fair.

As for casting aspersions to my relationship with DD - it's not nice to accuse someone of lying without proof. I'll wager a Salvador's cup of java and nachos I can prove definitively I'm not related to DD (nor have any desire)...and I'll even share my winnings (the nachos which you'll pay for) with you (except the java).

If anyone's interested - there's a UN report called "doing business in China 2008" - kunming is listed as the second worst city in China (out of 30) for breached contracts (Lanzhou being #1 for those too lazy find & DL the report). It's a crappy situation but GOKM threads won't be changing the world anytime soon.

If you want more - negotiate (good luck with that). As for court - that's a lot of money. From DD's perspective, I can see why they'd hold the TESOL until your contract is completed - once teachers arrive and start networking - they discover various private schools and clientele who can and will/ore pay above ¥7k per month...and unilaterally breach their contracts.

@lumingke's legal solution is interesting and perhaps even viable - but enforcement of the court oder will be your major issue.

Good luck with the TESOL viewing...

abcdabcd (428 posts) • 0

Hey Dazzer, yeah contracts are like toilet paper. But forewarned is not forearmed because anyway you need to work and there isn't really any way to control employer's behavior. So you're absolutely right.

But what I'm getting at is that there are sometimes ways to get back at employers who cheat you. For instance, just speaking out about an employer who cheated you on an internet forum.

And if a lot of people don't just take being cheated lying down, then employers will be more cautious and the frequency with which cheating occurs will diminish.

Dazzer (2813 posts) • 0

As laotou hints at - as if bleeting on an expat forum is going to change the business culture here? Yeh! As if...

I/You can scream, and scream, and scream until you are sick. The local employers will just label a me/you as another difficult and angry laowai teacher. They need us for business, like a carpenter needs a saw. They don't respect us and many employers don't like us, some will even openly espouse this, if you are unlucky they will do it to your face.

Be under no illusions.

abcdabcd (428 posts) • 0

I'm not under any illusions. I understand. I wasn't born yesterday.

You don't think that blurbs on this forum have any effect? Why is the friend of the owner on this thread trying to clear the air then?

Anyway, coming on an expat forum and venting may not be enough. But it's something. If people wrong you, then don't just take it. Try to do something about it. It may have a small effect, but if a lot of people do something, then the effect is not so small and the business culture will change because employers will learn their lesson and be forced to be more cautious.

You're not powerless. If you believe you are, then you've lost the game.

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