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KIA 2

Danmairen (510 posts) • 0

Since we've been censored by Gokunming yet again and the thread has been locked, I give you,,, KIA!

Seahorse wrote:

"Ah Dan,

I did chuckle when you said I was like you. Although we can agree on a few points, I feel I am probably not at all like you in my world view. Yet, I agree with you in some points. I still stand to the belief that religion of any form including the religion of atheism should not be in the public schools. Teachers in public schools are there for teaching not indoctrination.

Although, I am not really like you, I feel I am completely different from your stereotypical religious person. I am never going to yell at a person to repent or burn. I voted democrat in the last election, and I believe very much in helping the down-trodden of life. I like to have a drink and laugh with the boys. I am very accepting of all people no matter what they believe, and I believe manipulation is no way to get people to believe something. From what I can tell, this is how teachers and administration feel at KIA. Why use a chapel to manipulate people? In the end, are manipulated people followers of the religion? From what I can see, students are given an opportunity to believe or not to believe.

In biology, my child learned about both creation and evolution. I'm sure the teacher leaned more towards creation, but both sides were taught. In philosophy classes, the teacher wants the students to think and make a decisions. It would be silly to teach only one thing then try to force students to believe it. I believe this, and I think this is the thoughts of KIA; therefore, this is why I made the response about heaven being full of people who love God not fearing hell. KIA wants people to investigate then make a decision out of love not manipulation or fear. My statement was a response to Zhubajie saying low church goers were fanatical and intense thus implying KIA chapels were meant to send fear into someone who isn't like-minded.

Going back to my statement about indoctrination. In many ways, isn't this what Chinese public schools are doing—indoctrinating? You don't get pissed about it because they indoctrinate in your religion—atheism or love of self. Yet, you get irate and call Christians narrow-minded for wanting to do the same at a school where parents choose to send their children. Such hypocrisy. The hypocrisy of non-religious, atheists, and pagans astound me. They get all bent out of shape if opposing views are being taught, but they could care less if their views are being taught. Why do you care if the opposing views are being taught in a small international school where parents choose and pay to send their children?

And again I will say I don't believe KIA is indoctrinating. I have heard of children from non-believing families going years to KIA without making a decision to become religious.

Finally, I believe KIA hires people of all Christian backgrounds as long as they can agree with their beliefs. There are certain beliefs which can not be overlooked in the faith, and it doesn't matter what persuasion you are from if you can agree with those keys beliefs. Also, KIA always seeks to hire professional teachers. Most teachers teach their subject, and they have very little if anything to do with teaching outside their subject. Therefore, KIA isn't looking for evangelists to come in and convert the heathen; instead, they want professional teacher who will teach math, English, history, and science at a professional level. As far as hiring atheists, the answer is no. Why would they hire someone who has a vast difference in world view, and why would someone want to work at KIA who has such a gap in world view? Well, I will backtrack on myself. I am not sure, but it might be possible that a national Chinese teacher who teaches Mandarin isn't religious, but this would be the only exception, and I am not even sure about this. Again, they are there to teach Mandarin and care for the students not to convert. All foreign hires will be Christian.

You guys seem to be so scared of a hidden agenda. KIA doesn't exist under a hidden agenda. They exist to give foreign children in Kunming an excellent learning environment from loving teachers who care about their well being. I am sure a few teachers have never once tried to convert a student. Instead, they teach and love them, and in the end if they believe, it was the choice of the student."

////My reply (without the use of a single word of profanity this time, thank you for erasing my entire post btw instead of just taking ONE word out. I didn't feel like wasting my time at all.)

"I still stand to the belief that religion of any form including the religion of atheism should not be in the public schools."

—That's great, but you are contradicting yourself repeatedly in your posts so I doubt that's how you (or KIA) really feels. Come to think of it, that's EXACTLY what KIA doesn't believe by adding a chapel, classes teaching religious values (by the way: take a look at what values the bible also teaches apart from the most obvious ones: genocide, rape, murder etc, it's all there. Are these values taught in KIA as well?), creationism, not hiring non-Christians and the fact that all students MUST attend weekly prayer meetings.

"In the end, are manipulated people followers of the religion?"

—Sure are. All believers are manipulated into their faith ever since the many religions were invented to search for answers and protection against the weather, wild animals, invading enemies and so on. Religions served to ease fears and solidify loyalty to the leaders so they could be sent to the slaughter with a confuse idea of eternal life and other empty promises.

"In biology, my child learned about both creation and evolution. I'm sure the teacher leaned more towards creation, but both sides were taught,,
It would be silly to teach only one thing then try to force students to believe it."

—Yes, silly indeed. So I assume KIA is teaching the kids about Muslim, Norse, Buddhist and Aztec religions as well as Scientology and Mormonism right? On an equal footing of course. A biology teacher teaching creationism and so-called intelligent design is a hack in my book, and a disgrace to my profession.

"In many ways, isn't this what Chinese public schools are doing—indoctrinating? You don't get p****d about it because they indoctrinate in your religion—atheism or love of self."

—First of all, get your facts straight. Atheism isn't a religion, not even close. China might teach the kids to sing the anthem and express love for the country and the CCP but I could show my kid his passport, showing him he's not Chinese and at the very least I could tell him how things really work. Consistent indoctrination from religion on the other hand is worse since there is no breathing space. You force your beliefs on them at home AND in the schools, and I bet you prefer Christian friends for them as well. Two words: Child abuse.

"Finally, I believe KIA hires people of all Christian backgrounds as long as they can agree with their beliefs,,As far as hiring atheists, the answer is no."

—I wonder what the government would say to this. Maybe someone should tell them?

"Why would they hire someone who has a vast difference in world view?"

—Oh I don't know, maybe to get professionals who care about facts and science and don't base a large part of their thinking on ONE of the tens of thousands of religions that have existed?

"Ah Dan, I did chuckle when you said I was like you."

—Great that you could indulge in some condescending laughter on my behalf. How very Christian of you. How about I perform a little monkey boy dance for you? What do you say? Maybe you could gather up all of your Christian friends and you could all laugh and point at the poor, naive heretic while you slap each others' backs.

Hey,, you might even join hands and pray for my Hell-bound soul since I am obviously not capable of understanding the concept of all-loving, omnipotent sky-people who can see and hear everything, but still let good, Christian people get killed by cars, cancer, famine, wars and stuff like that, impregnates virgins, give birth to themselves, then die but don't really die and joins himself in Heaven afterwards. Now let me go get my monkey costume...

Hazelnut (11 posts) • 0

Danmairen, whenever there is a post involving Religion, I feel like writing something. But you are always faster and write exactly what I am thinking. Thanks for that :-)

In biology class I want Kids to learn about science and not about some religious believe system. I am so sick of listening to people who want to make me believe in creationism. Thats the beauty about science, there is nothing to believe in about, just facts.

Math is the same, and most religious people get it. 2 apples and 2 apples are 4 apples. Easy. Does anybody want to make believe us 2 apples and 2 apples are 3 apples? No.

Creationism is a slap in the face of all scientists, who work their whole life to find answers to questions. It took hundreds of years and many scientists, to find some of those answers. I am thankful to all of them.

Personally, everybody should believe in whatever he wants to. But a personal believe system is a personal thing and has nothing to do with school education at all. Kids schould learn about the existence of religion and its history and about ethics. But a chapel in a school kids have to go to? Teachers who need to have a specific believe system?
A teacher should be able to explain why 2 and 2 apples are 4. What does it matter what he is thinking of God, Allah, Mohammed, Buddha, Jesus, Thor, Zeus etc.? All he has to be good at is in explaining kids science.

Sometimes I wonder. Especially Christians have that argument, "we" might be afraid of them. Seahorse wrote: "The hypocrisy of non-religious, atheists, and pagans astound me. They get all bent out of shape if opposing views are being taught, but they could care less if their views are being taught. Why do you care if the opposing views are being taught in a small international school where parents choose and pay to send their children?"

Actually I think it is vice versa. Most so called "non believers" care for a good school education. We do not want "our views" beeing taught. I have never heard of any school having a No religion class. Any why care about a small international school in Kunming? Because I think every child schould have a good school education based on science and not on believes. Especially if their parents have to pay for that school.
Fortunately I do not have any kids. But for the day I might have one, I hope for a "normal" international school in Kunming, where expats can send their kids to.

kunming tiger (28 posts) • 0

Am I to infer from the contents of this thread that KIA has a discriminatory employment in place? One that discrimiated against job applicants on the basis of their personal beliefs? Is such a policy legal in the PRC? Discrimination on the basis of one's religious beliefs (or lack thereof) ?

Article 13 of the PRC labour law states " No employee should be discriminated agianst on the basis of nationality, race, age, religion, gender or disability"

Article 20 of the employment services act says that" no discrimination related items shall be included in a contract of employment or offer of employment"

It would be interesting to get a legal opinion on KIA's present hiring policy if it is as stated.

Master Shake (20 posts) • 0

Jesus Christ. I'm not religious and I'm not big on having a chapel class in schools. But...you people are really being, to borrow a word from Gaoxing, douchebags with your attacks against KIA.

Who cares? Let them do their thing, and you do your thing. Or are you too busy spending your entire days trolling the gokunming forums looking for people who actually do something with their lives that you can attack?

Danmairen (510 posts) • 0

Master Shake: Don't take the Lord's name in vain! -as a teacher I know is fond of telling his students.

Hey man, nobody is forcing you to read this thread, you know, as in forcing kids looking for an internationally minded education to attend mass and filling their heads with creationist nonsense at the same time.

"In any other field, you can argue about politics, taste in music, poetry. There's never the feeling that you're supposed to respectfully tiptoe away. You're just not allowed to criticize someone's belief if it's a religious belief, though you're perfectly allowed if it's about politics."

-Richard Dawkins

zhubajie (57 posts) • 0

"KIA ...is hardly an intense fanatical group who flops on the while handling snakes and drinking poison." — Seahorse

Fine. Do they teach evolution in the biology classes?

zhubajie (57 posts) • 0

Richard Dawkins: by reputation, a first-rate geneticist, but a crap historian. At least not a vile cheer-leader for mass-murder in Iraq and Afghanistan, like his competitor, C. Hitchens.

laotou (1714 posts) • 0

Dan
Thanks for KIA 2! I like to troll the gokm forums instead of watching TV - infinitely more interesting to read the point/counterpoint of the various flavors of expats and the occasional local opinions that pop up now and then.

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