What the beginner of this thread said is true. BUT his collection of all the negatives in the Chinese society is not a true description of what China is really like. REMEMBER NOT ALL CHINESE are rude and inconsiderate and backward and with prejudice. And I do believe your life in China is not in misery all day long.
You do have a right to express your resents here. But just be OBJECTIVE!!
And to those people whose names are called Chinese, you don't have to put up both of your hands to agree with those people with complete bias, ethnocentrism and no knowledge about China.
To be frank, we have the right to say whatever we want as an opinion of our own views. It doesn't mean it's right or wrong. My comments is only based on my experiences and observation since my time here in Kunming. I can speak about other places in China. All the behavior that GAOXING mentioned are unacceptable in most societies. I'm not trying to change people habits, just making observations. After all, this is a forum. Overall I love China so I plan to stay here for a long time but I can give my opinions when ever I want to.
Grasshopper I understand your defensive attitude being Chinese. However, if you ever get a chance to actually visit another country, you would be more aware of just how these "bad habits" really stand out about Chinese people.
Did you know Chinese are banned from many hotels across the world? Even regions of a country! Try to book anywhere in the Maldives if you are Chinese. Did you know Chinese tour companies give classes on manners to their Chinese clients before they can travel outside China? Do you think perhaps there are reasons for this? Don't be so naive. Why not take advantage of the laowai here and open yourself to learning something from them? You Chinese want to be free and open to the world? Take some responsibility (and constructive criticism) and make an effort to learn something. Can't hurt you one bit.
Are you *still* actually here?
And this is why we have culture gaps, conflicts, and the occasional flame - westerners try to force their opinions onto others. Grasshopper's had the good fortune to meet a myriad of refined people - Lumingke and I have also noticed the opposite end of the spectrum - somewhat more prevalent here than say Beijing or Shanghai (where spitting in public is fined - at police discretion). That's not to say we don't have friends who are quite well mannered - even by western standards - it's just some sores are just very apparent - example Pamela Anderson with a canker sore on her lip - although we're used to her ample charms - we'd probably just focus on that damn cold sore.
Bucko - I can understand that sentiment in Maldives - probably has something to do with the loss of ashtrays, hotel towels, etc. Not to mention that annoying habit of eating various seed snacks and thoroughly avoiding the trash can with the husks.
Despite the recent affluence - China still has a long way to go as the government slowly raises the living standards of our rural neighbors. With improved living standards and sanitation - hopefully - will also come a healthy respect for where we live (and especially around where I live) and for our neighbors. For a view of some truly ugly parts of China (for those of you with masochistic tendencies) - take a drive through the rural parts of Guangdong just across the pond from Hainan...makes Kunming look like a spotless odorless clean room.
laotou, I have many Chinese friends that are quite well mannered not doubt. It is strange that they ALL have traveled internationally and I suspect this has a great deal to do with their "awareness" of these things.
I also have many friends that have not traveled. Most of their habits remain, spitting, throwing trash about, etc.
I think a lot of it has to do with the total lack of consideration and civic pride. Throwing garbage about is a big problem. Why do Chinese do this? Out of car windows, leaving garbage on a beautiful park bench. NOBODY would even think about taking their dirty tray at McDonalds to the trash can. It is always left on the table for someone else to deal with. I watch people throw garbage on the ground even when there is a trash can 1 meter away from them. I would really like an explanation on this. This behavior really puts the Chinese in a bad light to anyone who visits our city.
Wow! laotou I am flattered that you say I've had the good fortune to meet a myriad of "refined" people. You are partially correct because my friends come from all walks of life refined (whatever that means) or not and regardless of ethnicity. But if Pamela Anderson had a cold sore in my presence...you can be sure the cold sore would be the furthest thing on my mind. All depends on one's perspective. She happens to be my laoxiang...yes, I am a laowai who has lived in China for 10 years. Specifically I came to China to learn about traditional culture and yes it does exist. What we as outsiders see is only what we see but what we see is not necessarily what it is. Why do Chinese spit? Well, perhaps it is because they don't feel like hacking up a huge wad of pollution and swallowing it. Much like how we wouldn't pick our nose and eat it. Make sense? Cutting in line? Fairly simple...remember... not that too long ago the Chinese people were starving and were given food stamps for cabbage and buns. So, there are a zillion fathers in line all wanting their children to live. Personally, I would do more than cut in line to ensure my children were fed. Anyway, my point is that China has gone through alot on many levels that the "refined" people have no experience whatsoever to truly understand.
Bucko you made a booboo assuming that I was Chinese. Care to refine your post? Or shall I being to pick apart your comments? i.e. "Why not take advantage of the laowai here and open yourself to learning something from them? You Chinese want to be free and open to the world?"
I mean come on mate...your statement is has all the markings of holier than thou attitude. My response to that would be...why don't you take advantage of your good fortune of being in China and learn something from Chinese? You Laowai (U.S. people) want the whole world to know that you are not as arrogant and presumptuous as you portray don't you? This statement is especially amusing "if you ever get a chance to actually visit another country, you would be more aware of just how these "bad habits" really stand out about Chinese people." Again my response. Given the fact that I have traveled to many countries. Well, to be frank, I am aware of many "bad habits" which really stand out about many countries. Let's say the U.S. again. Constantly creating wars only to make excuses to invade other countries under the premise of "freeing" the people and liberating them from backwardness. Ummm...Cultural genocide and maybe that not so valuable stuff called oil and resources? I dunno just took a stab at that one. Forgive me for not better articulating. Said too much as it is. Just for the record I have many friends from the U.S. whom I love and adore.
Just a note. there seems to be a lot of us and them attitude throughout the form. duanjiang_dj you may be on to something. cheers.
Americans were considered rude and uncouth by the british during their colonial days. And of course, the Chinese in general have always considered all laowai uncivilized (barbarian) for various reasons. So this is a no-win discussion.
Kunming is still country bumpkin-ish - as is probably most of the west of China. The government initiated a no spit, no litter, respect the environment campaign during the olympics which actually seemed to be working - but then it petered out. Poor public behavior in China will only wane when it becomes economically painful - such as using streets and sidewalks as trash cans. I stopped a junior high school student in Cuifu who dropped her trash on the sidewalk - despite the proximity of the trash cans - this behavior is quite prevalent amongst school children of all ages.
I suppose the best solution is to arm (figuratively speaking) all the retired seniors to nag people who dump trash on the sidewalks etc - they have virtually infinite time to nag, whine, and cajole the errants into more proper and mutually respectable public behavior. Public spitting though will be much more difficult to eliminate in the west.
In our community pool in Beijing - one of the female residents would spit vigorously at the end of each lap - I figured since I was swimming in her spit (ugh) perhaps it would be appropriate if she swam in my pee (just couldn't do it though, darn it). Pool monitor was pretending to be furniture until he noticed my stern gaze...Finally got off his can and pointed out the NO SPITTING signs to the unsanitary fiend (but I quit using that pool shortly after that...eyewww).
Truthfully, I was surprised to hear from Gaoxing - I thought he/she had left already - given the apparent level of discomfort and displeasure.
Me - I've been in Asia for so long - I actually prefer the squat-style toilets...but I'm waiting for Gaoxing to start that thread later...and the stinky/fermented dofu doesn't quite elicit the gag reflex as strongly - although I still decline to partake.
To put things into perspective - - it is their (Chinese) country and we (foreigners) can choose to stay or leave. I am surprised that some of those "nay-sayers" are still here since they dislike the place/people so much.
Having traveled to more than 30 countries, I can vouch for the fact that there are some negatives everywhere. For instance, checking out the ghettos in Washington, DC area and east Los Angeles (if you get in and out alive) can show one many things infinitely worse than Kunming.
Plus, every town has some up-scale areas and some more "down-trodden." We live in Bei Chen and find most folks very pleasant and tidy. There are always some slobs (and - - surprise - - some of them are foreigners!).
We adjust - - and enjoy it here.
Cheers - - JJ
