error in my last post - the 72 ebike was carrying another woman, not another ebike!

Does bother me that people often won't apologize outright. I asked a Chinese English teacher once about using the terms 'buhao yisi' and 'duibuqi' - she said the problem with using 'duibuqi', in many situations was that it clearly implies 'It's my fault'. My response was something like 'Yeah, that's what an apology is'. I'd prefer the open admission, but I've been in Chinese societies for a long time and I'm not so stupid as to insist on it and make enemies when I don't have to.
Face, yeah - I'm not big into face - though again, it's not uniquely a Chinese concept. But in China the insistence on getting the other person to admit fault is usually impolite.
Gosh - I guess Chinese culture is not perfect - no big surprise. But then perhaps I'm not qualified to correct the world according to my own lights.

in a have power vs having no power situation, there is no prize to get the correct answer of who will apologize regardless who is to blame. :-) saving ones life is paramount to saving ones face in such case for the poor soul. :-) if you can dictate what is "the truth," you are always right, that is the reality in china. the poors learn that too and the poors can tell who will make their life not worth living. and the poor can then also do exactly that to those to whom he/she can dictate. such phenomenon.... call it current chinese culture? :-)))))))

@Michael 2015
Bravo, very good arguments.
Only thing I can add is that Daoism teaches truth and honesty and Buddhism, too [may with differences to Chinese Chen Buddhism].

@Dazzer
....is it a date?..lol

@Stephen:
First let me say, I am adapting as good as I can, also I have a normal life and don't argue with a lot of people or get in any trouble. Of course I am trying to fit in, as much as I can. I am not stupid or retarded.

I don't think,that things have to be done like in the west, or that Western cultures are perfect, they are not...of course not!!!

In my opinion Chinese culture, is a cruel and mean culture, but let me ask you first, what makes a 'good' culture 'good'?

For me it is the adherence to it's own virtues, that makes a culture 'good'

You may not agree with their ways, but other cultures stick to their [more or less] virtues.

The Arabic world has their Islam, Central Europe a certain set of, pagan, semi Christian to Christian virtues, African cultures are based on their pagan or imported Semitic religious influences, etc. Right?

China has none, except organized hatred and pointing fingers at others, and money.

So you have China with a strong socialist government, you have a variety of religion and philosophies, and everything people care about is themselves.

And I disagree with the lying part. A white lie for example is o.k. We shouldn't use them, but basically we use them to not hurt someone we care about. If you'd ask a bloke on the street, how he likes your new sneakers, he may tell you very honestly, what he thinks.

In China you use them to win or gain something. Anybody in China has, at least once, asked for direction and a person with no clue, told us to go that way [instead of telling you "Dunno!"], and of course he or she lied, to make himself feel good [face-good / or at least not bad], pretending he has a knowledge that, he of course did't. So you wander off, until you are lost and ask another idiot, telling you where to go.....catch 22. So they can feel good about themselves while you get in bigger trouble.

That as Zhudan, pointed out correctly,goes into everything, social connection, work, relations, tests, exams, driving licenses for F*CKSAKES, you can fake and lie pretty much into anything you want, in China.

e.g. A friend of mine wanted to do an English test for her sister. So, her sister can get a better job. So,she went to a place where they offer fake ID's, especially for test and exam. Her photo but her sisters name, she excels the test, her sister still sucks at English but everyone is happy, right?

Nobody likes lying. Many Chinese parents freak out if you skipped a test or exam, or didn't tell the parents about her little prince/ss, falling and scrape her knee. "You lied to me, you are a cheater,liar.....bla bla."

that is my issue with it. The bigitry of it. Nobody wants to be lied to in China but they lie the crap out of it.

And yes, of course everywhere people lie, there are big companies cheating and lying, BUT it is not how it is USUALLY done but in China it is. It's a social standard to gain, by lying. Face is everything and a lie in comparison, is not even something to worry about.

Another situation, I am in the elevator with my 1.5 year old kid, a man is smoking, I asked him, if he could put out the cigarette, he looks at me, smoke rising from behind his back, "I'm not smoking!" now unhappy/upset for being pointed out, ...out of three possible smokers, my kid, myself,-holding my kid and him, holding a smoking cigarette behind his back.

I asked him again, if he could please get rid of the cigarette, he insisted he was not smoking. He walked out of the elevator and stopped, I went to the mailbox [ 15 yards] to pick up a delivery. He continued smoking secretly, when he was done, he walked by, giving me a bad look and mumbled a curse.

Wonderful culture-wonderland.

So, China has no [genuine] culture [left], and that is why so many people act like it. Every time someone brings anything cultural up, it's to preach you, [feeling superior] or gain face for being so smart and wise, or well-traveled. You for sure never have a real cultural communication [sorry for the pun, since most companies are registered as one, there is actually almost no communication at all.]
I once made the mistake, to pull a joke about the bbq fish, you are not supposed to flip over, or a boat will sink.

First it went into a discussion, which was nice, later I was [angrily being told] forced to just believe in it and never question anything Chinese.
...Wonderful culture.

In Confucianism, [the chosen philosophy] many of the things and ideas acted out in this culture are not welcomed.[spitting, crappin in the streets, making a nuisance, troubling others etc.]
So in my opinion... There is no real culture. People try to teach and preach you culture, how to hold their chopsticks, or how to put the tea kettle on the table.

But what is the REAL Chinese culture?

Look around, tell me what is real Chinese culture anymore. It's a Disneyatic idea [a lie] of something that is not there anymore, or maybe has never been there.

And about being adhering to Chinese ways. I offer you, try it for a month. I did, and it was a disaster.

As a foreigner, you are not here to really live or learn the culture, [if there is any left].

They will reject you, because you are there to be used, not to have a part in society.

I had [at that time] Chinese friends and partner telling me, that I am annoying because I am becoming very Chinese.
I offended people by using the Chinese way of lying and deceiving, not giving an answer, or not calling back or let problems solve themselves [yeah...right]. Just smiling everything out. How do you think they received it?

People want you to be perfect Chinese and Foreigner, always at their disposal, for their benefit, not for you to learn the culture.

The few things you learn, are mostly about food and table manners, and that is it. Maybe a few greetings so you don't embarrass your friend.

Look, I am really not talking down on it. I am trying my best, to fit in, without losing to much Chinese or Western face, but I also avoid lying, unless I would hurt someone.

But I will not embrace it, or like it, or think that Chinese culture is old and fascinating. It's obsolete for at least 300 years.

It may have had a great culture at one point, but if it did, it is far gone. Now, we can experience a cruel inhuman wolf, dressed,... as what he thinks a sheep looks like.

So if Chinese culture wouldn't try to sell itself so hard, I would probably like it more, but to be honest it's ridiculous.

The funny thing about Chinese culture is, I don't know any Chinese [besides a few nationalist], who actually like, or enjoy Chinese culture. They all have their issues with it, or would like to see change. So by that,... Chinese culture is probably the most hated culture, judged by its own peers.

rejected: I think you've overstated the case, but it exists - as it does elsewhere. Lying is very popular in hierarchical societies.

Dudeson, all cultures may be considered out of date, since they are always changing. Chinese culture is strained because of the rapidity of change. What you see is what you get - and it will be different tomorrow.
This is the 21st Century - there is no firm ground anywhere.
PS The idea the 'Chinese culture' is the most hated by its own 'members' strikes me as ridiculous. But it's interesting to see how people of different cultures define 'their' culture - usually has something to do with traditions, which were never quite what they say they were and which are certainly not what they used to be anyway.
"All that is solid dissolves into air."

@Alien
That is the problem, it hasn't changed. Or at least not towards progress, some older people will tell you about that. I don't mean the "When I was young, everything was better" -crap.

The thing is cultures do evolve. Look at US or European culture in the 60's and now.

Look at Chinese culture in the 60's, 70's, 80's and now. The change is minuscule. Of course it is, to change you have to admit, something needs to change/wrong. But that is frowned upon in China. Everything is always perfect.

Not all cultures are considered out of date because younger generations will redefine it's cultures. Unless....?

Ask any Chinese person friend or stranger if they think Chinese culture is good and what it would look like if they could change it.

The result will be anything but Chinese culture.

I tried in adult class, not pushing for an answer in any direction [if anyone wants to accuse me]. Some got really upset about their own culture, I had to cool them down.

As I said, I don;t think Chinese culture is amazing or great, it promotes all negative things and it's against natural evolution. That why there is so much repressed anger, frustration, pressure, violence and a very big indication, ...-suicides.

Also that's why I see, especially with this young generation of Highschool kids a very strong affaction for some western values, not because they are better, or good, but just because they are actual values. Unfortunately, the Christian missionaries are jumping on these kids, pulling them into the [mattress packed guai- shushu-van, ready for brain rape].

Again, it's sad, but nobody forces anyone to do anything,

Dudeson has a lot of time to write.

@goldie
hm.....maybe

Dudeson's, you sound so bitter and negative. I have been in China a long time, too, and I do not see things the same as you do. I have had a really good experience here.