My point is not to say it's good or bad. In an ideal world people's justice would be fair and the world would be equal. No doubt, we are moving towards that. But we are all moving at a different pace and no country is there yet.

I'll admit. I use Guanxi and if the person I expected that Guanxi from didn't provide it, I would be the first up in arms.

It's a vicious circle that is not limited to China. The Guanxi I refer to is far from Kunming.

My other point being, Guanxi is only a problem when it doesn't suit. And that goes for foreigners in China too.

Okay, but where you have 'no doubt', I have doubts. But then it's hard to be a prophet. I'm pretty sure, though, that if everybody lies back and waits for good things to arrive on their own, they won't.

Like I always say, when receiving advice, consider the source.

- I'll admit. I use Guanxi and if the person I expected that Guanxi from didn't provide it, I would be the first up in arms.

I am not making any judgements but it is always better to know something about an individual on a personal level before accepting any advice or feedback or comments on any topic.

Now we can clearly see that we both are in 2 very distinct extremes when it comes to this topic. I have never and will never accept any gifts from any person. I learned this lesson as soon as I arrived in China and I chose what side I wanted to be on. I can easily say NO to any person and have never felt obligated to do anything for another person. I do not ask others for favors or hookups when it comes to business or paperwork. Yes, I have asked people for a favor like helping me move or drive me to the airport.

It is a vicious cycle that is continually fed by the people who take part in it. I do NOT feed the beast - that is my choice.

The OP is asking about Guanxi on a business level but my replies have been to both business as well as personal because the group think can not change without individual thinking changing first.

Well, let me give you an example (perhaps a well chosen one, but an example):

Person A employs a young couple as house boy and a housekeep many years ago. They have a kid, when which Person A pays for all education and health of kid for 15 years (Not that much, we're not talking Oxford here.) Person A then takes great pains in making sure that kid, now adult, is taken on by a very good government department in a prosperous job. Person A now expects that when dues are paid to said government department that they are (I would expect) at a special rate.

If you didn't believe in Guanxi, coming from Zimbabwe, you'd be destitute and hungry, at best.

I won't pretent that's the way of things in Europe.

Hi
I want to thank you all for this input. It is excellent to hear all sides.

One comment that caught my attention was

'Guanxi serves a select few and the majority are tired of this crap and want this outdated system thrown away. They want fairness and equality and guanxi serves neither of these 2 values that the majority think is important.'

I agree and see my Chinese colleagues with this same frustration.

However how do you achieve this elimination? and do we really want to eliminate it completely?

I feel I've learned to treat my friends better in China and the west from my exposure of the guanxi phenomenon in China? They have done a lot of great favours in return?

Sure their are those that abuse and take advantage of others. How do we eliminate this and keep the good features of guanxi like enjoying strong real friendships?

Hi
I want to thank you all for this input. It is excellent to hear all sides.

One comment that caught my attention was

'Guanxi serves a select few and the majority are tired of this crap and want this outdated system thrown away. They want fairness and equality and guanxi serves neither of these 2 values that the majority think is important.'

I agree and see my Chinese colleagues with this same frustration.

However how do you achieve this elimination? and do we really want to eliminate it completely?

I feel I've learned to treat my friends better in China and the west from my exposure of the guanxi phenomenon in China? They have done a lot of great favours in return?

Sure their are those that abuse and take advantage of others. How do we eliminate this and keep the good features of guanxi like enjoying strong real friendships?

Fear - Is what keeps this outdated system in place. A great example is drinking at diner with collegues. My students tell me they can NOT say NO and they must take part in the drinking if they want to keep their job. I have a background in counseling people with addictions so I ask 1 simple question of them.

Has anyone said NO and gotten fired? The reality is no one has ever tried and they ignorantly keep feeding the beast because of fear.

Over 5 years ago there was a change in laws and employers must now give their workers a work contract. I typed up a standard contract and had my students translate it to chinese. I sent them out to find jobs and I told them to take their new Chinese contract with them. One student did just that. She asked for a contract at her new job and they gave her some crap they called a contract which was really a document of slavery and serfdom. I told her to ask them to sign her contract which included all the necessary parts (Working Hours, Duties, Overtime, Holidays, Pay). They signed and she never worked over time like all the other fools did. On a few occassions she did work overtime and she was paid according to her contract. She received the same salary as others without wasting her weekends and evenings. In truth, her salary was higher when she did work over time. She also did not participate in the usual extra activities like climbing XiShan when she did not want to.

Ignorance is the cause of the fear and fear is what keeps this old lie in place. Of course a person with low self esteem will not ask an employer to sign her contract. Neither will a person with no education or with no experience but this is all part of education and it does work.

The problem or the question is - How do we keep good relationships without keeping guanxi? The answer is one has nothing to do with the other. There are NO good features to guanxi. We should treat others as we want to be treated - with respect and there is no need for guanxi, favors and hookups.

@Campo: I won't argue with you about any possible good features of guanxi in the particular present situation, but it is worth noting that reliance on guanxi is, or can be, an individual response to get things done in a situation which is unfairly discriminatory, and/or ruled by an official system that is unfair - ie, it is often a (probably overall disfunctional) individual response within such a situation/system that individuals are not collectively together enough to change, and damaging to efforts to do so because it substitutes individual benefit for collective morality or ethics. And of course in such a situation the same practice of guanxi can also serve to advantage individuals unfairly over others - hence it is overall conservative rather than reformist or progressive, and note that it is more available to the rich/powerful than to those with little wealth or power with which to establish and practice it (guanxi). So as you say, opposition may start with the individual, but it cannot end there if it is going to have significant results. Functions a bit like protection and favors from, say, Don Carleoni in The Godfather, who has the power to do the favors he chooses for those who are weaker, and also the power to choose which favors those who are weaker will grant him 'in return' - this is what he calls 'friendship'. Thus he is in the position to choose how others will act, with the goal, of course, of maintaining and increasing his own power - the last thing he wants is fairness to all. I'm sure any gangster or other power broker knows this as a matter of 'common sense'.
Not a surprising response to institutionalized competition (and I'm not arguing against competition per se).

In my opinion, giving a few bucks for better parking, or asking your buddy to get good cinema seats, it's something different than getting your given rights taken away, not getting a birth certificate, business license, a rape kit [cos the suspect is an official] unless you call your buddy or pay the 'reddy'

As I mentioned before, China business models are only able to feed desperation. How many businesses did you see that are born on creative products or free

In most western countries, of course there a favours and guanxi, but you also have a chance to go around it. My brother didn't spend money or favours to open his business and getting hispapers.

I disagree with some point on HFCAMPO, although he has a lot of very good points, mobility and globalization. But guanxi will not go away, probably ever, not because Chinese don;t want it to go away, but look at it where does the money and guanxi and favour flow?

It's not the 100Kuai fine corrupt traffic cop. The big ones are all sitting on top and they are running it big scale.

Most Chinese also see guanxi and [false] friendship as status symbol and why would they change? If you could call your buddy to fix your problem in a day, than doing it your own for month and weeks. See preschool licenses, ask any owner how they got their preschool license? You will see.

About the mobility, it would make it easier if people would actually care.
But there are hundreds of thousands of Tsinghua and BeiDa graduates without jobs, not because there is something wrong with their CV but you don't get in without Guanxi. I hired one and what that woman told me is scary.

As I said it is so deep, deeply wanted and appreciated in Chinese culture, that it will never go away!!!

.....unless The state philosophie stears away from confucianism, change towards a state of law [those two things the state will never-ever allow as long as the flag stays red], education, a working system of law-enforcement [at the moment is more like law-favourism].
And heading towards efficiency and effectiveness.

Also it needs a certain amount of FoS, otherwise employees, creative minds, and changers will be still silenced.

From my direct circle of friends, the papers I read it seems that the guanxi, graft and corruption just goes more underground, on big scales it gets worse. On smaller case the payback dynamics change.

But not to be all negative, I would love to see a change, as I said many times, imagine a Utopian China, with order, law, efficiency, balance and harmony. What a f*cking great place that would be...I would never want to leave it for one second. Or not even going that far. Imagine China as a functioning [more or less] state, see Singapore or HK.

So it's all about who benefits from the guanxi and who wants [or not] to change it.

Correct dudesons. Guanxi as we have known it has/is changing to more covert practices and thriving more than ever, including the spread of it to the west especially US by the droves