@laotou

Words spoken like a true mainlander. (Please do not mistake this for an attack, it isn't. Just putting forth a different perspective)

While many of your historical points are accurate as @blobbles pointed out, your characterization of being ashamed to be Chinese is somewhat twisted. The problem lies in that the mainlanders are claiming to be Chinese when in reality, they've turned their backs on being Chinese via the cultural revolution. So now, the "true" Chinese in HK and Taiwan are lumped together with mainlanders unable to distinguish their unique culture from the mainland. And now, these "foreigner" are forcing you to adapt to their identity, how would you feel?

Imagine this. After the American revolution, the Americans still called themselves British. After many years, fed up with their eroding identity, citizens of UK decided to call themselves something different only to have the British (Americans) claim that the Island known as UK is really part of British (US) sovereignty and any attempts to declare "independence" from Britain (will be met with force.)

This is the true issue between China and Taiwan. The simplified version is that the Citizens of Taiwan inherited the legal government of The Republic of China and still maintains it. While the People's Republic of China liberated themselves and disassociated from the ROC to form their own government. And now, they are claiming ownership over land that they have never occupied on the theory that they are the legal heir of all thing Chinese. And like the mafia, they don't take lightly of people leaving. They are forcing all Chinese around the world to associate themselves with the image that mainland Chinese have crafted. Anyone unwilling to bend to their will shall be silenced. This is the true issue in HK and Taiwan.

@Tonyaod
Thanks for attempting to cast a counterpoint to my perhaps somewhat polarized view of things. And I'm flattered that you would consider me a mainlander, a true Chinese as opposed to a wannabee. Just a few decades ago - being associated with China wasn't all that exciting of a brand.

The government of Taiwan under the KMT was a police state for decades - suffering from politically motivated home invasions, kidnappings, torture, the infamous executions of the academia and professional elect, etc. For a long time, Taiwan was a nation without an identity. Under the KMT, they claimed to be the true government of China - but even with the continuous support of the US government et al - they've failed to accomplish anything of significance (although they've economically boomed) - as opposed to visionaries and idealists, such as Sun YatSen and his contemporaries who managed to topple the last imperial dynasty through amazing perseverance. That was a time of danger and a time for heroes (both genders) and talent to rise to the occasion.

As for the government of China - they have responsibility for the peace and prosperity of over 1.4 billion people - a daunting task not experienced by any other nation in the world except perhaps the caste oriented India. We should always keep that in mind when analyzing China's political and economic movements. This nation has been historically difficult to keep together - pundits should also take note of that historical fact.

Liberty and justice for all comes with individual responsibility - which has been continuously eroded in the USA.

The indigent Taiwanese (from Fujian) were quite displeased with the sudden overtaking of their island by the KMT. The true indigenous Taiwanese aborigines were very well treated by the KMT and were a continuous thorn to the Japanese occupational forces. The mostly Fujian-Taiwanese were actually somewhat well treated by the Japanese occupational forces - a rarity and significant departure from Japan's occupations of other Asian countries. The Fujian Taiwanese have a rather sordid history - take a look at their activities during the Dutch occupation.

Hong Kong was ceded to the British as a concession from the infamous Opium Wars - an extraordinarily shameful episode in China's history.

So for the HKers to revel in the British occupation touches a raw nerve.

As for your so-called "true" Chinese - there's really no such thing - that's akin to saying, "I'm a true European". While all Chinese (and all Asians for that matter) may look alike to occidentals - this nation is as diverse culturally as Europe - Han, Mongol, Manchu, etc - that China has been continuously unified, imploded, unified etc ad infinitum...over the millenia is an amazing history and statement to the talent of each founding dynasty's emperor. Many have tried in Europe - all have failed. China is a significantly heterogenous nation of people.

My aristocratic culture essentially disappeared post 1947 - I'm a quaint anachronism - although I've met a few new generation mainlanders with similar roots who appear to have survived the cultural revolution and purges.

The government of China is still young, historically speaking, but I see them evolving steadily into a responsible, respectable world-class leadership.

I see the HKers in the news as foolish, immature, irresponsible, selfish - but to their credit, extraordinarily well behaved, given their mass.

They're foolish, as HK will never be permitted to separated from China again. Taiwan will be re-unified. This is the party line and is an issue of both historical, political, and national security significance. HK is mostly treated as any other Special Autonomous Region (SAR) - but ALL SARs must comply with Beijing rule - which include nix on secessionist leanings.

HK will eventually have their democracy - but it must never broach the issue of secession - which is Beijing's purpose in filtering and vetting the pseudo-democratic candidates. Spain squashed Catalonia's secessionist vote. Scotland narrowly avoided seceding from the UK - which incidentally is also a dramatically diverse culture - ask a Welsh man if he's English and he just might punch you in the nose. British is OK, English - definite no-no, as one of my Welsh acquaintances energetically and pointedly noted.

And again - the USA - that shining beacon of democracy (mixed sarcasm) was NOT founded as a democracy, contrary to most people's misconceptions. The USA was founded as a Republic.

The two/multi-party system is tearing the USA apart, allowing for massive corruption, fraud, waste, and abuse of both the country's resources and it's people - not to mention it's impact on global affairs, such as the Savings & Loan scandals and the "two-peat" global financial crisis (an expanded version of the S&L debacle).

You mention the American revolution - but I don't see China as being particularly abusive aside from cautiously moving the island towards it's desired democracy. HK appears to continue to operate as HK - aside from ludicrously unaffordable real estate prices, escalating unemployment, etc. HK should be more worried about being marginalized by China.

China still has a long path towards extended social freedoms and the world should rejoice that the government is moving cautiously, if not glacially.

Unleashing a nation of phenomenally competitive if not somewhat unscrupulous merchants upon the global economy would be globally disastrous. We've already seen indications of this in Spain - where Chinese leather goods makers are obliterating their domestic craftspeople - to cite an example.

I'm not a mainlander - but I see that the government has given Chinese around the world something to be proud of once again. My father raised me to be proud of my heritage - and for that I'm eternally grateful. Yeah - we're also a nation of peasants - just like the ugly americans. Civilized behavior as both domestic and global citizens is still a LONG way away - but the country is making steady if not glacial progress - although IMHO Yunnan is particularly resilient at attempts to civilize.

The Cultural Revolution is recognized by the government as a massive social error - and the Gang of Four and their cohorts were duly singled out and punished for abuse of power - so comparing the current governments to that illicit period of time is strongly debatable. The country has a recent history of "opening up" and seems to be somewhat on track as per WTO nudging and guidelines. Executions are (in my opinion - regrettably) significantly pared down.

The government restricts people leaving? That may be so - but Chinese tourists are essentially flooding the world - bumping the economies of HK (to name one ingrateful recipient), Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam (recently on the "DO NOT VISIT" list - but since retracted - due to anti-Chinese racially directed violence). I take issue with this comment. Government officials and officials of State-Owned Enterprises are on restricted travel - as this is a trickle down from Xi JinPing's anti-corruption drive. Bestowing lavish vacations, private club memberships, etc upon government execs and SOE officials was a well-known corruption practice.

Forcing all Chinese around the world... I think you're confusing China with radical Islam. If the China of today were truly as oppressive as you portray, they'd be assassinating detractors on a massive scale, utilizing the US legalized global rendition program, and implementing "aggressive interrogation" against political misfits, and legally assassinating their more radical citizens around the world with drone strikes without due process of law, in the interest of national security.

There is NO issue about HK and Taiwan - they belong to China. The residents can have any government they want - but they're living in China. Taiwan is officially and internationally recognized as part of China - by the UN. Taiwan departed from the "true and legitimate government of China" stance and began pursuing recognition as an independent state as a result of this political maneuver - wisely fomented by the USA, in one of their more logical and less toxic foreign policy maneuvers - kudos to Nixon and Kissinger for that one.

HK already has it's democracy. It's steadily evolving towards a pseudo-true democracy. China's vetting of it's candidates is merely to ensure the transition remains smooth. All this "democracy now" protesting is irresponsible behavior by immature, impatient, selfish, petulant fodder being misled and manipulated by selfish, self-aggrandizing power mongers.

When I was a student, I was like that in the USA - but then I learned social responsibility and I grew up a little, matured a little - but I'm an insignificant grain of sand compared to the responsibilities of China's past and present leaders.

As a litmus test and a concession - I'd suggest the government put the issue of vetting HK's candidates to a vote - see if the people REALLY want what the deluded unemployed (aka never had a job), incited mobs are advertising. I hope not - I suspect if HK gets what the mobs want - they'll be full of regret for the next several generations.

Democracy comes with responsibility - and a bunch of yahoos who've never worked a day in their lives don't strike me as a community of responsible people with a glimmer of an inkling of social responsibility.

I was talking to a HK friend recently (long before any of the recent protests) and he told me that many HK'ers were proud and happy in '97. The common people looked forward to being 'reunited with the motherland'. Then they started to feel the effects of mainland rule. For example, their kids were threatened with compulsory 'citizenship' classes, property prices sky-rocketed due to the influx of 'hot' money from the mainland and their basic services (such as healthcare) were stretched to the limit by the mainland 'immigrants'. Finally, the CCP has tried to go back on or work around part of the treaty that was signed prior to the handing back of the territory. Unsurprisingly. Many in HK are angry and feel cheated. People wonder if things will ever be OK with Beijing in charge. But I can understand some people being ignorant to these facts with such heavy-handed and blatant censorship; they only get one side of the story. So, while it may be fashionable to label HK'ers as shameless 'running dogs' who deny their heritage we should remember that MAINLAND CHINESE were killing each other very recently simply because of their hate of certain car brand owners.

It's all a nice history lesson laotou, but you still refuse to recognise that the young people of HK have genuine grievances. These aren't just foreign influence sycophants that you seem to suggest, in fact, that line reads far too close to the rhetoric of the Chinese government to be taken seriously. Do you really believe that is the truth? It is worth noting public foreign support of HKers in this action appears AFTER not before...

H.K. remains a test case for one country two systems, which people across the straits would watch closely. Recently there seems to be progress in peaceful relations across the straits. But a crackdown in Kowloon could jeopardise goodwill across the straits towards acceptance of one country two systems. Hoping for peaceful resolution!

(By the way, do we need to be careful to avoid key terms? I'd hate to see this site get blocked due to this issue, like Instagram was.)

Laotou: Nice essay, though I'd disagree that the KMT treated the Aborigines all that well.
However, while you say that everybody is moving cautiously towards 'democracy', you neglect the fact that is the super-rich there who are the ones who have been in bed with the CCP there ever since 97, and that the rich/poor gap in both HK and the Mainland has been continuing to grow. Now is this democracy, or socialism, or socialist democracy, or what? My answer would be: I don't think so.
As for Taiwan, it has not been ruled from the Mainland since the KMT lost there and fled to Taiwan - 65 years ago.
I think your idea of a litmus test - asking HK folks to vote on whether they wanted candidates to be vetted by Beijing - is a good one - that might be the beginning of some kind of democracy in Hong Kong, and I think the result would surprise you - and I think that's one reason why Beijing will not do it.

I think everyone wants more self determination. It is natural. Not just in politics, but also at work and in other areas of life.

By the way, is information control democractic? It's done in bourgeois-democratic countries by wealth-dominated control of the major media, but you can usually find the information you want if you dig deep enough. The fact that this isn't good enough doesn't mean that it gets better when you turn over the job to direct state action, under which you are likely to get arrested for digging.

When I try to get yahoo, I get a message saying the Internet gods can't be sure whether it's the authentic site or something and advise me not to go further. I'm an ignorant chicken about this and have so far not gone farther. Has anybody (without a VPN, I mean)? I'd sort of like to read my email.

@laotou,

I have read the entire post, scout's honor, but for me to respond to every point would put everyone else to sleep and may be beyond the scope of the forum.

However, I do want to say that I respect your beliefs and opinions, but I must disagree on many points as either being too simplified or skewed towards the "official" mainland account of history.

In addition, I don't think you've quite grasped the point I was making in citing the American revolution (or perhaps in the heat of the moment, overlooked it. Here's a hint: UK=Taiwan/ROC, US=China/PRC) To claim that Taiwan is part of China is too simplified and inaccurate a position. The land of Taiwan does belong to the Chinese people, however, it does not equate to being belonging to the PRC. It could be argued that the ROC is safeguarding the land that is Taiwan from the illegitimate government of PRC. Each side has a valid viewpoint, it all depends on how you interpret history.

Lest you mistake me as a China-basher, I actually support the current leadership as have made good effort to keep the country together and moving forward. However, that does not mean we must agree with every position or theory the CCP puts-forth. What they did in HK was a PR nightmare, they screwed that one up. I agree with the ultimate goal, but the way they went around it was quite tone deaf.

@tonyaod
As an expat doing business in Taiwan, I suffered significant loss (over USD 12.5 million) under that insect Chen ShuiBian's rule of exemplary corruption. Affiliated banks lost over USD 15 million on a single trickle down transaction.

I really don't care about Taiwan's independence movement, DPP, KMT - the island is a banana republic with a bunch of severely talented people, living in a cesspool of rule of law pretending to be democratic.

I ache for the day when China finally reunites Taiwan and I hope the insect is still alive so he can rot his days out in a Chinese prison.

Many PROFESSIONAL executives on both sides of the political dilemna have suffered due to Taiwan's vacillating politics. Some lost their companies (take a look at the history of Sogo's ownership) as an example. I met that guy and my wife used to work for him (as an executive). Nice guy - screwed big time.

Political oppression.

My family is aristocratic Chinese. My great aunt was a very well-known, very respected (if not feared) minister of education.

Despite this - Taiwan needs to return to China - as a people, as a nation, and as a country.

Did you know that one of Taiwan's "ambassadors" once grabbed his wife and "danced" to the host nation's national anthem - he thought it was background music and thought it'd be a good idea to "break the ice".

Of course, perhaps I'm just culturally insensitive to Taiwan's unique blend of oddities...but USD 12.5 million + is not quaint. I retained a top 3 international law firm to get my money back - their comment - corruption - good buddies with the insect - not possible/not feasible.

Now THAT's political corruption. I know the mainland has it's growing pains - but it has to drag/lead a nation of 1.4 billion towards the future WITHOUT leaving anybody behind.

As for debating ownership of land - the government of China IS the Chinese people. ROC safeguarding the island from the "illegitimate government of the PRC"? The UN has recognized China as the one true China (stripping Taiwan of that title) and also recognizes that Taiwan is part of China - you may not agree with the UN - but they're more legitimate than you or I. So who's right? The people of Taiwan, or China and the UN?

You and I are definitely polarized on this issue - and my wife is even more radically polarized than me (she's absolutely FOR reunification).

You believe culture in China is dead - but I say it's alive and growing. The government is leading (with their fair share of mis-steps) with the call for social responsibility from the top down - hopefully avoiding the US welfare state debacle).

It's easy to armchair strategize international politics and global affairs, but nobody but China has China's BEST interests at heart. Nobody but China fully understands all the metrics at interplay. And NOBODY but China has responsibility for 1.4 billion people.

I've ALWAYS criticized the Tiananmen democracy movement as selfish and irresponsible. Global news egged them on, foreign governments overtly and covertly encouraged them - but for China and for the world - NOBODY in their right mind could possible want democracy and free and open markets from China - either then or now. Look at the solar PV market as a simple example. Without government restriction Chinese PV companies could have and would have stampeded all over the WTO restrictions and guidelines on dumping.

I rankle at my crappy internet access and my attempt to connect to google and gmail bouncing around my crappy ISP until the queries time-out and die. But I also understand more than most, less than some, China's need for information control, lest imbecilic situations such as that now occurring in HK spiral out of control.

I suppose at the end of the day - we can debate each other's points with our various sources of debatable history ad infinitum - but that wasn't the point of my initial rant. I was merely frustrated that students who have ZERO responsibility are creating such a massive stench and using democracy as their catch all solution. Democracy has nothing at all to do with their woes. Those caught up in the thrill and excitement of the moment are lemmings. Woe to them should China actually grant them their wish (minus secessionist rights).

Like I said - freedom under the guise of democracy comes with responsibility and these yahoos have no concept of the depth of that word. All I see is a rather large mob of reasonably well-behaved, selfish spoiled brats bickering for something they don't understand and can neither manage nor control.