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Forums > Study > Is it worth learning to write Hanzi?

@tigertiger and @dazzer, I think you guys jumped the gun when you saw me using the word "words" to describe "syllables". Clearly there are more than 2,000 words in Chinese, but there are only 2,000 unique syllables. BIG DIFFERENCE, but I used the word "words" instead of syllable but trying to infer the same meaning. From the context and my other posts you would have recognized what I mean though.

Chinese makes more complex words from a combination of these individual 2,000 syllables. That's a primary reason why foreign loanwords can generally not be successfully transcribed into Chinese - there are too few syllables available. It's also difficult to directly compare a language like Chinese with it's character based writing system to one that uses an alphabet like English. Having said that though, English has by far the most extensive vocabulary of any language because it continues to borrow heavily from other languages. Chinese is different. You can create new words too, but these new "words" only arise from a combination of existing syllables. Consider for example, the word "India". India is India in virtually every language. However, not in Chinese, because there are no syllables corresponding to "In-Dee-ya" or "In-dia" or "In-dya" depending on how you want to spell out the individual syllables. Yes, the syllable "ya" exists in Chinese, but in the end, it becomes "Yin-du", the same word used to describe the Hindu religion.

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Forums > Study > Is it worth learning to write Hanzi?

I don't think you guys are getting me. While there might be thousands upon thousands of "words" with different meanings in Chinese, the vast majority of these are homonyms. There are only 2,000 unique syllables. All of the 370,000 "words" that you have described, Dazzer, are some combination of these 2,000 basic syllables, of which 400 are unique and accounting for the 5 possible tones that makes 2000. Given that according to Chinese grammar, no differences are made according to time, gender and there are no articles (such as "a" or "the"), this naturally also means that you get fewer possible words.

The vast number of homonyms makes Chinese a super difficult language to learn in my opinion. If Chinese had more distinct words it'd make learning the language easier, not more difficult (at least for me), but well, it is what it is.

Still don't believe me? Consider the word "zhong" high tone. It can have literally dozens of meanings and the characters used will be different (although in my example they both use the same radical). Consider and . Both are pronounced exactly the same, but the first one means middle and the second one means time or o'clock as in "ji dian zhong?" (what time is it) or "si dian zhong" (4 O'clock). There are at least 50 meanings for the word "shi" falling tone, plus hundreds more for "shi" with the other tone markers. Yes this would mean that there are possibly 500 words with distinct meanings for the syllable "shi", but they all sound almost the same (and 50 of them sound EXACTLY the same) since "shi" is a homonym.

English and other languages also use homonyms but there are far, far fewer homonyms in English than in Chinese. I'm not going to go into any details about the large number of polysyllabic homonyms in Chinese, but naturally, they are just as numerous.

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Forums > Travel Yunnan > Recent visa renewal.

Or you can fly with any international (non-mainland Chinese) carrier, such as Lao Airlines, Thai Airways or DragonAir that flies from Kunming. Naturally they all accept international credit cards too, irrespective whether you use their call center, website or office to book.

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Forums > Study > Is it worth learning to write Hanzi?

Oh and when I said 2000 distinct words in Chinese, I already accounted for the 5 possible tones, so there are really only 400 distinct words without tone markers. These 2000 words are merely monosyllabic words, meaning that if you put any combination of one of these syllables together with another one, you get a new word. This concept accounts for the perception that tigertiger must have about the "many" words in Chinese, which of course don't exist in the context that I've explained. While there could well be 50,000 unique words if you account for all the possibilities (this includes both mono and polysyllabic words, although in Chinese few words have more than 2 syllables), it still causes confusion for learners from languages that have more sophisticated vocabularies such as English.

This is because in English, we rarely think of our words as being able to be broken down into syallables with individual meanings. In Chinese, the word "meiguo" carries the meaning "America" but it can also be broken down into "mei" meaning beautiful and "guo" meaning country. Thus three words are created with three distinct meanings. In English you can't do that.

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Forums > Study > Is it worth learning to write Hanzi?

@tigertiger, Chinese does NOT have a lot of words and nearly every foreigner that starts studying Chinese complains that everything sounds the same. What you probably mean is that is one word with a distinct meaning, while is another, which I recognize. However, both words sound the same except for differences in tonality. The only way to recognize the differences is a keen ear, or failing that, being able to read the characters.

A better example would be where you have words that have the exact same pronunciation and tonality, but have very different meanings. In that context, sure Chinese has plenty of "words" but it doesn't have plenty of distinct, non-homophones. As mentioned, Chinese has a mere 2,000 distinct words. I'm not sure how many distinct words English has, but it could easily be in excess of 100,000. Even Thai has 20,000-40,000+ distinct, individual words, because unlike Chinese, Thai is at least able to borrow freely from foreign languages for loanwords.

Although my Chinese is still rusty, I am fairly certain that there are only a minimal number of loanwords in Chinese because the limited number of sounds means most loanwords would be impossible to transcribe. Even the loanwords that Chinese has taken on don't really sound like the original. It had to be pointed out to me by my Chinese teacher that the Chinese word 幽默 (you mo) comes from the English word "humor" or "humour" (British spelling). To me, youmo sounds nothing like humor whereas even somebody with no knowledge of Thai would be able to recognize that คอมพิวเตอร์ (com pew toer) means computer just by listening to a Thai speaker say this word.

I therefore strongly suggest at least getting some knowledge of the most common Chinese characters (perhaps the 300 most common should do). Learn to recognize them, but if you don't want to spend time writing them, then don't. However, don't make the mistake of assuming it's easy to get by in China illiterate in the Chinese writing system. Given Chinese is perhaps the most homophonal language in the world, great confusion and difficulties in communication can occur if you just rely on the spoken language. Thai, Lao, Vietnamese, English, German, French, Spanish etc. can all be spoken and understood without an absolute need to be able to read or write them, but using the same approach for Chinese is difficult to say the least.

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Yeah there are lots of hebrew speaking travellers in Vang Vieng these days. Same with regional tourists from Thailand - frankly given that Thai and Lao are nearly the same language I don't see how a Thai speaker can't read Lao, but apparently many can't hence the reason for the Thai signs you saw. Same in Thailand - at petrol (gas) stations near the Lao border, which are popular with Lao motorists you can see signs in Lao next to the Thai since there are some subtle differences between the two languages.

@Senorboogiewoogie, in Laos everything is flexible due to the power of money aka corruption. I was in Vang Vieng around midnight back in 2009 and it was still noisy in parts, but generally quiet outside the center of action.

Also, while perhaps not a good idea, every foreigner living in Laos knows you can sleep with a Lao citizen of the opposite sex in the same room if you are discreet about it and you'll only get in trouble if you piss someone off. I also think that the government only sees the images of westerners in Thailand and the Philippines "buying" girls at girlie bars and wants to maintain a more lowkey image, but naturally no Vietnamese or Chinese (or Thai) truck driver would be without his karaoke and Lao prostitute in the border provinces. The reality is that prostitution is as big in Laos as anywhere else, but maybe just a little less visible. However, in Vientiane there are large numbers of local girls with western or other foreign "boyfriends", or in genuine relationships.

Haha, well I don't think I was that pessimistic, and I do agree with you on some of your points - although being quite knowledgeable about languages myself, there is more overlapping of the dominant language from the more economically powerful country into the less dominant one than the other way round - i.e. despite what you said, there is very little Lao spoken in Vietnam, but the other way round there is quite a bit of Vietnamese understood in Laos. Lao officials on the Lao-Viet border can usually speak some Vietnamese, but Viet officials generally can't speak Lao. I have been there and know this for a fact. Same with Viet officials on the Chinese border - they can speak Chinese, but Chinese officials speak only Chinese and English, not Viet.

Vietnamese is also only understood amongst a very small minority of people on the Thai side of the Lao border, not many as you say...same with Thai in Myanmar but not Burmese in Thailand (except amongst the immigrant workers and some Burmese signboards near the Burmese border) in Thailand. As mentioned above, Chinese is quite strong in northern Laos, but Lao is non-existant anywhere in Chinese territory except when it comes to the Dai language, which is fairly close but not exactly the same language.

I've also found that the majority of South-East Asian Chinese language students here in Kunming don't speak much English at all for some strange reason. The ones back in their home countries that didn't major in Chinese are often quite good at English, so I guess there aren't that many polyglots around as you say - 2 languages seems to be what the average person knows and not more.

Although if we're on the subject of which SE Asian language to learn IN ADDITION TO English, which will continue to be important, then it must be Thai. Thai is understood throughout Thailand, Laos, western Cambodia and the Shan State of Myanmar. No other SE Asian language is as dominant as Thai.

This is reflected in the much greater interest amongst Chinese students in studying Thai than say, Vietnamese. I have met tons of Chinese students interested in, or with at least one semester of Thai behind them, but only two who had studied Vietnamese.

Sounds good in principle, but learning to speak all SE Asian languages would require you to be some kind of linguistic genius and probably half a lifetime of devotion. Speaking only one of the languages from the region, say Thai or Burmese or Vietnamese, wouldn't help much in neighboring countries since each language in the region is not mutually intelligible with only limited overlapping...so such an approach would mean limiting your engagement to one country.

In parts of northern Laos and northern Myanmar, no attempts are made by Chinese settlers to learn the local language - everything (signboards, menus etc.) is in Chinese and locals [Laotians and Burmese] who can't speak this foreign language [Chinese] are left out.

Also, I don't think English should be forgotten - despite various levels of English fluency in the region, English is still the only global lingua franca and the global language of business. English is the only language you can successfully use in all SE Asian countries. While it's great to know Thai, Lao, Burmese etc. it isn't realistic unless you are living in those countries. I have also noticed that just like with English, Chinese learners of these SE Asian languages really struggle, and when encountering a local that speaks good English, the conversation will usually inevitably switch to English since the local will assume the other party can't speak their language well enough. It's only once fluency is achieved that this is overcome.

My recommendation would be for both Chinese and other foreigners interested in investing/doing business with the region to know how to speak English fluently, followed by becoming proficient in at least the basics of their host countries' language to at least show some interest and respect. Apart from those interested in becoming translators however, I personally think time and money is better spent gaining technical skills and then applying some language skills on the side - not the other way round.

I've done that and I'm doing quite well. I am an engineer that has worked in Vietnam and Thailand and I speak Thai and some Lao with an almost native accent (and can read and write both languages) - something that is of enormous benefit to me, but I have achieved this as a side passion rather than as my main job. Still, I barely speak Vietnamese and don't have the energy or time to work on it - in any case, doing business isn't difficult as most educated people there speak English anyway and I have a very good friend who helps me so it's all good. Ditto for Cambodia and Myanmar.

There is an error in this article. Lao Airlines flies only twice (2) a week from Luang Prabang to Jinghong, not daily. They only just restarted this service recently and I highly doubt there would be enough demand for a daily service at this time. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this service were to once again be suspended in the near future. Luang Prabang-Kunming flights are said to be restarted again in the near future too, but no date has been given.

Check out online copies of Lao Airlines' Champa inflight magazine for more details.

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What do you mean by "foreigners"? Everyone who is a non-citizen of Myanmar and wants to travel there is a foreigner. I doubt Burmese citizens require visas to return to their homeland.

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Horrible tasteless, thick-crusted "cardboard" like pizzas that are a far cry from what they should be like. Way overpriced too. Wine may be good, but why bother when the nearby Prague Cafe makes much better pizza at a more reasonable price?

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Great Mexican food and ice cream, excellent Raspberry smoothies and an overall good atmosphere. Can't do much about the low ceilings on the second floor, but the early closing time could be adjusted, after all, the nearby French Cafe closes at 1am.