OK, so on that note I was wondering if you knew what I best consider doing. If I followed my sponsor's advice I could be turned back but on the other hand, she could be right. I just want to get it right first not that I am either rejected for a tourist visa or more likely, asked to leave the country again to apply for my work visa after having first entered the country on a tourist visa.
1. I hold multiple citizenships, but I would be using my Swiss passport in order to obtain my Chinese visa. If there is an issue about applying for a visa abroad (no matter if I go for the tourist visa first or the work visa) then I'll either get my passport fedexed to Switzerland, or better yet, I'll use my Australian passport and get it fedexed to Australia. I don't know the system in Switzerland or who would be willing to take care of things over there for me as I haven't lived there in many years. My family lives in Australia so that's where I would apply (by asking my parents to apply on my behalf if it comes to that). I will wait here in Thailand until I receive my passport complete with visa back. Although I was in Australia recently and I probably should have applied back then, it's a little too late now so fedexing my passport would be the only option if it comes to that.
2. I have an employer willing to sponsor me. I am an engineer so will be working for an agricultural/food processing company. I have met the boss numerous times and my sponsor, a good family friend has many times tried to reassure me about their ability to sponsor my visa. I won't start working for them unless (or until) I have a residence permit valid for work. Therefore I hope they can keep their promises.
3. I have read various reports on the internet about applying for visas, especially outside your home country. I heard that in the past month the Chinese Embassy in Bangkok has started to make life difficult for everyone, especially non-resident foreigners who want to apply for a simple tourist visa. Not only are hotel bookings and air tickets requested, but an invitation may be required too; the clerks may not want to issue a visa to a tourist or if so, will even in the case of a resident only issue a visa valid for the duration of the proposed stay, say 9 days rather than the full 30 days etc. All of this might only be temporary but it doesn't help if you want to go to China soon rather than in 3 or 6 months when things might go back to normal again.
4. My sponsor called up the Kunming PSB who told her that for me it's possible to arrive on a tourist visa and they would be willing to convert it to a residence permit valid for work. Hmm...not sure about that one, so who should I believe?
5. I agree. But it would be good if someone could share their experiences about my situation. Given the responses on this thread about going to Hong Kong to apply for a work visa not being a good idea, I wouldn't want to risk it either. Although I do have the email address of a good visa agent there and will send them an email to ask about what to do.
I thought you could get a tour to Mandalay via the Ruili checkpoint, but the cost of the permits is really high. I suppose as the country opens up more and more, the restrictions will start to disappear. I'm wondering just how dangerous the areas near the border are though. I believe the Burmese government previously didn't really want anyone crossing the border beyond a few hundred meters into the country and even then only for day trips (this includes Chinese visitors). My dad has however been able to cross this border with some Chinese business partners to view some growing sites located just beyond the border but in recent times no one (including his business associates) has returned there and I think they are contemplating moving the whole site either into Ruili or to Laos or Vietnam until the whole security and political/immigration situation gets sorted out.
A Chinese friend of mine went to Mandalay on a business sightseeing trip to explore opportunities there back in February or March but after he heard about the difficulties and expense in going overland via Ruili (effectively it was a no) he decided to fly from Kunming to Mandalay, where he encountered no difficulties at all.
I have been told by my sponsor that it is possible for me to arrive on a tourist visa and then convert it to a residence permit (for work purposes) in Kunming. I previously held a study residence permit but this permit expired today and I haven't been in Kunming (or anywhere else in China for that matter) since June.
I'm not sure who to believe since all the information I have been getting has been conflicting. I do know that it's not possible to change from a residence permit for study purposes to any other visa type or purpose of residence. However, my sponsor knows what she is doing and she telephoned the PSB in Kunming who confirmed the information I have mentioned above.
I don't know who's right, but there is an option to get a Z visa in other consulates/embassies. You have to get the paperwork sent there. I am either getting my residence permit (or Z visa) done in Bangkok or Kunming. If you couldn't get a work visa in another country, then there wouldn't be a supplementary visa form to fill out. There is no way any sane person would spend $1000 to go back to Europe or the USA just for a Chinese visa. If you have the right guanxi anything is possible anyway.
On another note, I was told by my sponsor that I could show up in Kunming on a tourist visa and the conversion to a work visa (i.e. residence permit) could be done there. My sponsor checked with the PSB and this is what they told her.
@TICexpats, I don't know why your friends "failed" to get a visa in the places you have outlined, but probably they didn't have all the documents they required. You need to have all the documents and your sponsor needs to send the paperwork to that specific consulate or embassy.
Logically, both sides would open and close at the same time, otherwise you would have a situation where people would get stuck in "no man's land". On Thaivisa.com, a British chap posted about how he got stuck in "no man's land" between Thailand and Malaysia. Not fun.
Yeah there are lots of hebrew speaking travellers in Vang Vieng these days. Same with regional tourists from Thailand - frankly given that Thai and Lao are nearly the same language I don't see how a Thai speaker can't read Lao, but apparently many can't hence the reason for the Thai signs you saw. Same in Thailand - at petrol (gas) stations near the Lao border, which are popular with Lao motorists you can see signs in Lao next to the Thai since there are some subtle differences between the two languages.
@Senorboogiewoogie, in Laos everything is flexible due to the power of money aka corruption. I was in Vang Vieng around midnight back in 2009 and it was still noisy in parts, but generally quiet outside the center of action.
Also, while perhaps not a good idea, every foreigner living in Laos knows you can sleep with a Lao citizen of the opposite sex in the same room if you are discreet about it and you'll only get in trouble if you piss someone off. I also think that the government only sees the images of westerners in Thailand and the Philippines "buying" girls at girlie bars and wants to maintain a more lowkey image, but naturally no Vietnamese or Chinese (or Thai) truck driver would be without his karaoke and Lao prostitute in the border provinces. The reality is that prostitution is as big in Laos as anywhere else, but maybe just a little less visible. However, in Vientiane there are large numbers of local girls with western or other foreign "boyfriends", or in genuine relationships.
Haha, well I don't think I was that pessimistic, and I do agree with you on some of your points - although being quite knowledgeable about languages myself, there is more overlapping of the dominant language from the more economically powerful country into the less dominant one than the other way round - i.e. despite what you said, there is very little Lao spoken in Vietnam, but the other way round there is quite a bit of Vietnamese understood in Laos. Lao officials on the Lao-Viet border can usually speak some Vietnamese, but Viet officials generally can't speak Lao. I have been there and know this for a fact. Same with Viet officials on the Chinese border - they can speak Chinese, but Chinese officials speak only Chinese and English, not Viet.
Vietnamese is also only understood amongst a very small minority of people on the Thai side of the Lao border, not many as you say...same with Thai in Myanmar but not Burmese in Thailand (except amongst the immigrant workers and some Burmese signboards near the Burmese border) in Thailand. As mentioned above, Chinese is quite strong in northern Laos, but Lao is non-existant anywhere in Chinese territory except when it comes to the Dai language, which is fairly close but not exactly the same language.
I've also found that the majority of South-East Asian Chinese language students here in Kunming don't speak much English at all for some strange reason. The ones back in their home countries that didn't major in Chinese are often quite good at English, so I guess there aren't that many polyglots around as you say - 2 languages seems to be what the average person knows and not more.
Although if we're on the subject of which SE Asian language to learn IN ADDITION TO English, which will continue to be important, then it must be Thai. Thai is understood throughout Thailand, Laos, western Cambodia and the Shan State of Myanmar. No other SE Asian language is as dominant as Thai.
This is reflected in the much greater interest amongst Chinese students in studying Thai than say, Vietnamese. I have met tons of Chinese students interested in, or with at least one semester of Thai behind them, but only two who had studied Vietnamese.
Sounds good in principle, but learning to speak all SE Asian languages would require you to be some kind of linguistic genius and probably half a lifetime of devotion. Speaking only one of the languages from the region, say Thai or Burmese or Vietnamese, wouldn't help much in neighboring countries since each language in the region is not mutually intelligible with only limited overlapping...so such an approach would mean limiting your engagement to one country.
In parts of northern Laos and northern Myanmar, no attempts are made by Chinese settlers to learn the local language - everything (signboards, menus etc.) is in Chinese and locals [Laotians and Burmese] who can't speak this foreign language [Chinese] are left out.
Also, I don't think English should be forgotten - despite various levels of English fluency in the region, English is still the only global lingua franca and the global language of business. English is the only language you can successfully use in all SE Asian countries. While it's great to know Thai, Lao, Burmese etc. it isn't realistic unless you are living in those countries. I have also noticed that just like with English, Chinese learners of these SE Asian languages really struggle, and when encountering a local that speaks good English, the conversation will usually inevitably switch to English since the local will assume the other party can't speak their language well enough. It's only once fluency is achieved that this is overcome.
My recommendation would be for both Chinese and other foreigners interested in investing/doing business with the region to know how to speak English fluently, followed by becoming proficient in at least the basics of their host countries' language to at least show some interest and respect. Apart from those interested in becoming translators however, I personally think time and money is better spent gaining technical skills and then applying some language skills on the side - not the other way round.
I've done that and I'm doing quite well. I am an engineer that has worked in Vietnam and Thailand and I speak Thai and some Lao with an almost native accent (and can read and write both languages) - something that is of enormous benefit to me, but I have achieved this as a side passion rather than as my main job. Still, I barely speak Vietnamese and don't have the energy or time to work on it - in any case, doing business isn't difficult as most educated people there speak English anyway and I have a very good friend who helps me so it's all good. Ditto for Cambodia and Myanmar.
There is an error in this article. Lao Airlines flies only twice (2) a week from Luang Prabang to Jinghong, not daily. They only just restarted this service recently and I highly doubt there would be enough demand for a daily service at this time. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this service were to once again be suspended in the near future. Luang Prabang-Kunming flights are said to be restarted again in the near future too, but no date has been given.
Check out online copies of Lao Airlines' Champa inflight magazine for more details.
What do you mean by "foreigners"? Everyone who is a non-citizen of Myanmar and wants to travel there is a foreigner. I doubt Burmese citizens require visas to return to their homeland.
Horrible tasteless, thick-crusted "cardboard" like pizzas that are a far cry from what they should be like. Way overpriced too. Wine may be good, but why bother when the nearby Prague Cafe makes much better pizza at a more reasonable price?
Great Mexican food and ice cream, excellent Raspberry smoothies and an overall good atmosphere. Can't do much about the low ceilings on the second floor, but the early closing time could be adjusted, after all, the nearby French Cafe closes at 1am.
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Getting Away: Vang Vieng
发布者Yeah there are lots of hebrew speaking travellers in Vang Vieng these days. Same with regional tourists from Thailand - frankly given that Thai and Lao are nearly the same language I don't see how a Thai speaker can't read Lao, but apparently many can't hence the reason for the Thai signs you saw. Same in Thailand - at petrol (gas) stations near the Lao border, which are popular with Lao motorists you can see signs in Lao next to the Thai since there are some subtle differences between the two languages.
Getting Away: Vang Vieng
发布者@Senorboogiewoogie, in Laos everything is flexible due to the power of money aka corruption. I was in Vang Vieng around midnight back in 2009 and it was still noisy in parts, but generally quiet outside the center of action.
Also, while perhaps not a good idea, every foreigner living in Laos knows you can sleep with a Lao citizen of the opposite sex in the same room if you are discreet about it and you'll only get in trouble if you piss someone off. I also think that the government only sees the images of westerners in Thailand and the Philippines "buying" girls at girlie bars and wants to maintain a more lowkey image, but naturally no Vietnamese or Chinese (or Thai) truck driver would be without his karaoke and Lao prostitute in the border provinces. The reality is that prostitution is as big in Laos as anywhere else, but maybe just a little less visible. However, in Vientiane there are large numbers of local girls with western or other foreign "boyfriends", or in genuine relationships.
Booming Southeast Asian trade necessitates bilingual graduates
发布者Haha, well I don't think I was that pessimistic, and I do agree with you on some of your points - although being quite knowledgeable about languages myself, there is more overlapping of the dominant language from the more economically powerful country into the less dominant one than the other way round - i.e. despite what you said, there is very little Lao spoken in Vietnam, but the other way round there is quite a bit of Vietnamese understood in Laos. Lao officials on the Lao-Viet border can usually speak some Vietnamese, but Viet officials generally can't speak Lao. I have been there and know this for a fact. Same with Viet officials on the Chinese border - they can speak Chinese, but Chinese officials speak only Chinese and English, not Viet.
Vietnamese is also only understood amongst a very small minority of people on the Thai side of the Lao border, not many as you say...same with Thai in Myanmar but not Burmese in Thailand (except amongst the immigrant workers and some Burmese signboards near the Burmese border) in Thailand. As mentioned above, Chinese is quite strong in northern Laos, but Lao is non-existant anywhere in Chinese territory except when it comes to the Dai language, which is fairly close but not exactly the same language.
I've also found that the majority of South-East Asian Chinese language students here in Kunming don't speak much English at all for some strange reason. The ones back in their home countries that didn't major in Chinese are often quite good at English, so I guess there aren't that many polyglots around as you say - 2 languages seems to be what the average person knows and not more.
Although if we're on the subject of which SE Asian language to learn IN ADDITION TO English, which will continue to be important, then it must be Thai. Thai is understood throughout Thailand, Laos, western Cambodia and the Shan State of Myanmar. No other SE Asian language is as dominant as Thai.
This is reflected in the much greater interest amongst Chinese students in studying Thai than say, Vietnamese. I have met tons of Chinese students interested in, or with at least one semester of Thai behind them, but only two who had studied Vietnamese.
Booming Southeast Asian trade necessitates bilingual graduates
发布者Sounds good in principle, but learning to speak all SE Asian languages would require you to be some kind of linguistic genius and probably half a lifetime of devotion. Speaking only one of the languages from the region, say Thai or Burmese or Vietnamese, wouldn't help much in neighboring countries since each language in the region is not mutually intelligible with only limited overlapping...so such an approach would mean limiting your engagement to one country.
In parts of northern Laos and northern Myanmar, no attempts are made by Chinese settlers to learn the local language - everything (signboards, menus etc.) is in Chinese and locals [Laotians and Burmese] who can't speak this foreign language [Chinese] are left out.
Also, I don't think English should be forgotten - despite various levels of English fluency in the region, English is still the only global lingua franca and the global language of business. English is the only language you can successfully use in all SE Asian countries. While it's great to know Thai, Lao, Burmese etc. it isn't realistic unless you are living in those countries. I have also noticed that just like with English, Chinese learners of these SE Asian languages really struggle, and when encountering a local that speaks good English, the conversation will usually inevitably switch to English since the local will assume the other party can't speak their language well enough. It's only once fluency is achieved that this is overcome.
My recommendation would be for both Chinese and other foreigners interested in investing/doing business with the region to know how to speak English fluently, followed by becoming proficient in at least the basics of their host countries' language to at least show some interest and respect. Apart from those interested in becoming translators however, I personally think time and money is better spent gaining technical skills and then applying some language skills on the side - not the other way round.
I've done that and I'm doing quite well. I am an engineer that has worked in Vietnam and Thailand and I speak Thai and some Lao with an almost native accent (and can read and write both languages) - something that is of enormous benefit to me, but I have achieved this as a side passion rather than as my main job. Still, I barely speak Vietnamese and don't have the energy or time to work on it - in any case, doing business isn't difficult as most educated people there speak English anyway and I have a very good friend who helps me so it's all good. Ditto for Cambodia and Myanmar.
Getting Away: Luang Prabang
发布者There is an error in this article. Lao Airlines flies only twice (2) a week from Luang Prabang to Jinghong, not daily. They only just restarted this service recently and I highly doubt there would be enough demand for a daily service at this time. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this service were to once again be suspended in the near future. Luang Prabang-Kunming flights are said to be restarted again in the near future too, but no date has been given.
Check out online copies of Lao Airlines' Champa inflight magazine for more details.