@wtf praps your job offer wasn't attractive to qualified teachers

praps, yes maybe. but I don't think so according the different discussion about the topic here on GK forum (about $$$ mainly), concerning foreign [native] English teachers. 200 isn't attractive to qualified teachers ?
praps it's not ok to hire someone using any kind of dialect to be a teacher (especially when it is done on purpose to denigrate somone else), which should be able to express in a "kind of" standard English!
praps, you don't understand very well what is meant with qualified, certified, professional, experienced teacher.
and if you are on the topic only to point the non-standard English of the users joining the topic, please let me tell you that your comments are useless! This is not a competition here to see who will have the most standard written English. You are not bringing any point to the discussion except trolling. Btw, this topic is not dedicated to native English speakers, praps that's what you think !?

I never said I'm a native and my English is perfect, but it should be enough to have an exchange about the topic. I don't see the point when you try to exclude non native from the discussion. There's no reason to see only natives taking part on this thread. I'm not sure you red the different advices given by the forum to keep the things civil.

praps your being over senstive. nothing i wrote was an attack or uncivil. the offer is more than just about the money. praps you shouldn't make assumptions about what I am. i try not too which is why i use words like praps.

What kind of silly discussion is this?
Qualified, experienced native English teachers can be as shitty and rotten as non qualified, inexperienced, non native English teachers. Not only in China, but everywhere.

The difference, and the only one, in China is that there is such a high demand that people with the urge, passion or just chance to teach Languages or other things, ....can. And it is fantastic.

Are there bad, teachers only looking for cash and convenience, SURE? But this is not just about certificates and degrees. Because it is happening in the west, too.

About quality, ...quality has nothing to do with your degree, but skill, motivation and experience.

I am in a management position and I have to choose from a whole variety of CV's but maybe I'm just not too focused on the paper rather than the actual skills at their work related demands. And our school is thriving like mad.

I have no preference if you are "Qualified" or not. The natural tendency is towards the less qualified because they are just more realistic and (sad to say it) more professional when it comes to training, instructions, and self study. In my experience most qualified teacher take qualified as KNOW IT ALL/KNOW EVERYTHING.
I agree there are maybe 10 qualified, certified and professional teachers in Kunming and I assure you that 9 out of those ten, [may be even all ten of them] are not up to the task, [if U'R lucky- they are just unrealistic] but almost certain, -have ridiculous expectations about, pay, accommodation, lifestyle, working environment, and even,... I kid you not, what kind of parents they want to communicate with, furthermore telling me how to adapt to 'THEIR' way of working, as well as their random leave of absence for ridiculous reasons. While if not granted threatening you, to break the contract and leave the school, with quote : "What are you gonna do about it.".
The ones I worked with and interviewed have been a huge disappointment and damaging to the academic and financial side of the institutes I worked for.

So that's why schools including mine can't afford to employ "PROFESSIONAL" teachers. Still gives me chuckles.

I am not qualified because my degree is not [internationally] recognized even though [E.U. wide]. Nor am I a Native speaker, but it seems I have enough reference form international experts that would certify (their words) my professional expertise if I ever needed to. At the moment there is no need because as many of my peers, I proof myself in my profession and thus never need any official approval from experts, yet.

Plus guys if the 2 week TEFL courses really think they [really] qualify you for anything, then you are dreaming. And they most def. don't justify 300-450RMB/h fulltime. Yes...real life demands.

About schools underpaying, it's obvious what sort of teacher work there and of course you underpay treat your teachers as idiots and it will be hard to keep them working in your school.
A lot of schools are started as businesses concentrating on the sheer business side and thus, managers, headmasters have no idea how to run, academically establish their businesses. How to keep staff and customers, how to train staff and parents to realistic goals and work dynamics.

I started my own small school and I would pay up to 500RMB per hour, if I could find 'That' head teacher that I could just walk up to and say: "Fill the classes, market yourself well through quality classes, hire good staff, train and cooperate with the other departments, build some good marketing & sales material and events including yourself (thus guaranteeing job safety). Design/ adapt curriculums, a plan for regional quality control as well as homework systems and parent communication and feedback...etc.

I have not found one teacher that agreed with the workload, hours, quality demands, contract term, even though along the western standard contract terms. So you figure.
In short, I disagree with most of the bad schools and I agree that the pay is terrible, but I very well "UNDERSTAND" their struggle.

For the teachers out there wondering or looking for good school, I would say build for the future. Don't sell yourself short, but don't be greedy or ridiculous. Focus on the problems with the education system here and try to find good channels to deliver your knowledge and character.
Talk to parents if you can try to find out what they are worried about. Walk the extra mile, do more than you have to. Be a good example to all other teachers and then you will see your class will be the most beautifully decorated, best academically and socially. And the best is without even trying people will listen to you. While you'll step up to be the head teacher, and eventually become the headmaster.

Most important be patient and deal with the idea that you have to take a low pay for a year (130RMB/h fulltime/ ca 9.000RMB, depending on the package -is what I consider as painstakingly low). If the school doesn't care then leave, because if they won't recognize a good teacher in their midst they are not worth your effort
Teaching in China is tough there are countless obstacles in your way, but once you know how to maneuver around them, it's a wonderful workplace, where you can build new methods, experiment with the language learning strategies, plus the impact you could have on student's personality is just wonderful.

Oh, btw....Sorry for the massive post, but I am getting tired of all that qualified talk and people complaining about how everything is at present, instead of trying to change it for the future.

no apology needed man.
great post. thanks for sharing.

wtf wrote: "Same with Chinese "teachers" applying to work as an English teacher (for Chinese) or Chinese teachers to teach foreigners. You could not imagine what kind of CV's you'd have the chance to see ... Anyone will apply, chemistry teacher, math teacher, music teacher [and you'll note that those at least are teachers lol], nurse, coming from any kind of area like economic, accounting, marketing, car selling, tour guide and so on ..."

So what? You think someone with a background in chemistry can't teach English? Chemistry is a pretty difficult major. So right off the bat, I would think they're pretty smart and have a good work ethic because you don't graduate in Chemistry if you're lazy and stupid. You don't think some big political figures have degrees in engineering? Check it out. If they can gravitate to the top levels of politics, they can teach. (not all of them, obviously)

Then, the next thing I would look at is their personality.

@dudesons is spot on. also showing another part of the game. recruitment is a two way selection process. at the first hurdle it is the teachers who choose to apply or not. i will also add that if you want to choose the good teachers you need to advertise in march or april for the fall. most are signed up before june for the following year. many of the good teachers won't be looking for a part time gig, or one at that needs lots of travel time either. i live int he north and would not do chengong for 300 per hour. i also consider the students, a school looking to teach 3 year olds is not the kind of place i want to work, having seen maladjusted tots before, even if i am not the one teachint them. in short, a lot of us look for red flags as much as we do for T&Cs, and it is amazing how many of these are in the job ads, but i won't be sharing those.

Exactly! Teaching 3 year olds! No way Jose! Not me. It cracks me up when I see an ad. that advertise ages 0 thru __. Come on! Zero?

@wtf??

When @Dazzler said "some of the posters on here should be certified", he wasn't talking about you. It was about something else.

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Everything said by @Dudeson, @tommann, @Dazzler and others are very true. However, I would also have to agree with @wtf that a lot of foreigners that apply for positions are usually not qualified because the qualified ones already have a job and are pretty happy where they are. The unqualified ones feel they need and deserve to make more than 200 (or what ever) / hr because they are still thinking in USD or Euros, or have a huge ego, or want a lavish lifestyle and want to live it up in Kundu or whatever. I say this from personal experience as I have many times helped my HR department vetted candidates. Even the ones I've recommended comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils. Many applicants simply don't see teaching as their career path, only a job to make money to support their lifestyle. So the problem comes down to not of qualification but of motivation. When I started teaching many, many, many years ago in China, I didn't know what I was doing, it was on the job training. However, I kept at it, learned from my mistakes and despite not having a degree in education, I would like to think that I'm now at least s decent educator.

Just my perspective.

Cheers~

@ Tonyaod
I couldn't agree more the place where you learn teaching is at the job. No difference with doctors, technicians, lawyers. If you ask any (degree) teachers being on the job for a few years they would tell you the same. e.g. That college gave them some nice background knowledge but in the end the hands on stuff is all learned on the job. Also that's where many post graduates decide that 4 years of college had nothing to do with the real teaching profession. Similar with all other professions all over the globe.

That was my experience, as well. I had an adult educator certificate and when switching to young learners it was of limited use and I had to start from scratch, which I quite enjoyed and it gave me a broader picture of how people learn, young and old.

I think what Liumingke is talking about are the baby care centers that are mushrooming everywhere.

And what you do there is less teaching and more care taking, baby massage, running a little dancing routine, singing, some gym and toy stuff. It can be fun if you are into interacting with that age group.

If it's as good for the kids, as they advertise I can't really say but it's also not harmful for the kids. Early socializing can't be bad, also it helps the Mom's and Dad's to meet other parents and teachers are happy about sharing thoughts with the parents.

The very best thing about the baby centers is, that many prospective teachers will be send [in some cases], all over the country for actual, real practical training which is always nice. They pay rather well and class periods are short.

I was teaching preschool for half of my professional career and it has its benefits as well. More interaction and hands on teaching, a huge variety of subjects. But (for me) It depends a lot on the facilities and material (toys and stuff) available.

The best part about teaching preschoolers is that you can really teach and influence their social skills. Saving them from being overly spoiled, when they hear the first "NO's" of their lives.
Especially since the preschool kids of today are the primary school kids of the future. And at last the kids are so cute.

In the end for a teacher it's a matter of choice and qualification, about if prospective teachers can and want to do it.