A citizen's quote from one of the best cultures in the world, Germany under a totalitarian government with strong propaganda,1942. .

"You realize you are not a free person in society when you are forced to lie (liar) to survive"

I suspect that some of the 1960's 70's fear in China is morphed into today's Chinese constant use of vagueness and inaccuracies.

Is there any will to have "order" in all aspects of society?

"Vagueness/inaccuracy", "disorderly over rules" seems to be on top of the list of modern Chinese society.

"Loss of Face " seems to hinder this much needed "order" campain.

Is "vagueness / inaccuracy", "disorderly over rules" the new culture??

Is this the modern Chinese individual?

Pretty accurate Dazzer....but I would like to have a list of "positive culture" happening now, morphing the culture of China.

Quote from Dazzer in the other thread..

"Evading the facts/truth even when it is sitting in full view."

"Ignoring history and even scientific facts, unless sourced from a chinese historian/scientist."

"Evading responsibility."

"Not giving a hoot about people outside of your bubble."

"Singing about 5000 years of culture, whilst not knowing anything about it."

"Thinking that slavish copying of art masters is high art."

"Not knowing about the outside world. Not realising that there was more cultural development, creativity etc. in 100 years of Renaissance europe than have been seen in 5000."

"Being more nationalistic than the uyoku dantai."

I have to admit, that I love the modern Chinese culture the new avantgarde. I like the artists the rock musicians and all the modern people who think less in boundaries. The product of that culture are pretty awesome too.

What strikes me is that imagine with all the people, resources, posibilities and landscape you the culture it could be. I am not even talking about westernizing it or not even about changing the government. This country/ culture could be a new Shangri la on the face of the earth.
But it almost seems like most Chinese or the once in power don't want it to be.

When talking about a topic in which people attach great emotions in, it is always good policy to tread carefully. There are always three-sides to a story, his version, her version, and the truth. Even when scholars try to be objective, there will always be an slant that is shaped by one's experiences and education.

The question as posed is very inflammatory to the Chinese while at the same time, would get a strong nod of approval by the expat community that no doubt shares the same exacerbation. The question implies that China has no culture, thereby implying that Chinese people have no culture; therefore all the "uncivilized" behavior in which we see is a natural consequence of such condition. We can then be quite smug with ourselves and our own "civilized" culture.

But if we back up a bit and ask what is culture, then the question becomes as nonsensical as asking if God still exists. For those that believe in God then he exists as He always has and for those who don't believe, He has never existed therefore how can one ask if He still exists.

If by culture the OP is referring to traditional Chinese culture then one would have to define what is traditional culture. For civilizations that have existed as long as China has, it would be impossible for cultures and traditions to remain unchanged throughout. Traditions and cultures change and evolve naturally with each passing generation. To expect the Chinese to adhere to all your notions of what Chinese culture should be would be akin to the Chinese going to London and expecting to see knights in shining Armor jousting in front of the Castle in which they live.

If by culture the OP is referring to "Western" culture, then this is a value judgment. How can one equate Western culture as having culture and non-Western culture as having no culture? This would be like saying White men are men while Black men are not. There is no right or wrong culture, only to what you are accustomed. Indians (not Native Americans) use their bare hands (the left hand) to wipe themselves after a bowel movement (and washes that hand promptly). Westerns might be repulsed by this on the grounds that it is unsanitary and yet how many Indians contract diseases through this "unsanitary" custom vs. those that employ the toilet paper wipe method? We are all shocked and disgusted at the sight of Chinese parents letting children relieve themselves on public sidewalks, but besides being looked-down upon by foreigners, what ill affects does that have on Chinese development and Chinese society.

Chinese people look-down upon Westerners as the "devil" while Westerners look-down upon Chinese as "uncivilized" people waiting for someone to civilize them. This is the way it always has been and always will be if we keep deciding to be intolerant to one another. It is disappointing although not surprising to see so many people who choose to travel and experience different countries so willingly yet aren't will to accept different cultures; this goes to all nationalities (although I do find the Chinese and Americans are the most flagrant offenders).

It is not my intent start a flaming war but instead, just providing some quick perspective on the matter.

The weather's changing, time to break out the winter clothes.

Stay warm! Cheers～

@Tonyyaod
I think that is wonderfully put and it is really well articulated.
But I wouldn't necessarily put culture and civilized as equal. I don't think they necessarily always go together.

For example you could have a low culture and be very civilized or vice versa.
For example look at the US one would say the US is very civilized but it's if it's a high culture is questionable (and vice versa, sorry, I don't wanna upset anybody Chinese or US, just throwing in an example).

The manners don't really matter becasue they are different and in my posts I care very little about the things in China, spitting, pooping peeing in the street, while living in China. It's fashionable here, so.. be it.

But what I meant is the culture essentially. For example if you go to Taiwan, where it's the same cultur, you will see there is a big difference in the culture itself. And in Taiwan there is nothing blanked out or censored of the culture inherited. It's modern and traditional but it works and there is no lying about it, no fake culture. It's more genuine. I'm not talking about, if it's good or a better culture in Taiwan, modern or traditional in comparison. but whatever is going on cultural identity wise is more relaxed and more accepted than in the mainland.

There is this great term I read in a few articles called "The Chinese Identity Crisis". its very informative while not being judgemtal trying to explain the feeling of many Chinese and the symptoms of this crisis.

Other countries went through this as well, or are in it at the moment....Germany for example is still in it or barely through.

dudeson,

im just saying since the topic is "Does China have any culture remaining??"

the point im just saying if we try to pinpoint the old ways their history of what they were and see it in todays lives im sure there will be a sense or resemblance.

because same as any country. people, ways of living, interacting with other culture and the state of development and history will make it evolve.

im not saying its good or bad or judging it. im saying china has its culture definitely but probably has its modern day touch.

The 4th of September is / was a rainy day in Kunming with low temperatures and this now has resulted in already 2500 words of text about this topic. So much for culture.

@Dudeson

I wouldn't necessary interchange culture and civilized as well but my point being culture and civilized is just a label with no clear definition. Every civilization think they are civilized and have high culture while holding some disdain for foreign cultures.

To say that China has no culture as the OP implied is to claim there are no gentlemen left. Perhaps there are no men that would fit your criteria of what a gentleman is but it does not necessitate that there are no gentlemen left in the world. It's a value statement. A very biased one at that.

In regards to the Taiwan issue, is the culture in Taiwan the same as those in China? We can say that both the mainland and Taiwan inherited traditional Chinese culture but can we say it's still the same after developing independently for 60+ years. When you say Taiwan has a more genuine culture, by that do you mean more open and tolerant? In that regard I would say I agree. However, I would not go so far as to say mainland China has a "fake" culture. Rather, I should say, mainland culture is not fake but instead, have a culture of acting insincerely when in public (which is a culture in it of itself, one that is very difficult for outsiders to master, I must say).

Having the disadvantage of not having read the article you've mentioned, I think the Chinese identity crisis is not one of having no identity in searching of one, rather, it is a crisis of how the Chinese should view themselves they the path in which they should pursue. Should they cherish all that is traditional or should the become more westernized. I think this is a problem that has been repeating itself throughout Chinese history with not definitive solution. The Tang dynasty was very permissive, open to outside ideas where as the Ming/Qing solution was to seal the borders and force it's will on others to conform.

Anyway, in this is not a rebuttal but an expansion of your viewpoints as I am in agreement with you.

Cheers~

Didn't read most of the above longer posts, so this isn't a reply to anyone or any of them.

Tea culture is alive and well. I get to sit and drink lots of pretty good tea with nice wooden tables and little ceramic frogs in tiny little glasses with Chinese families. Got tea drunk many times!

Hi, I also did'nt read the longer posts above. However I'd like to point out that wikipedia, and "common knowledge", are very incorrect to claim that Chinese culture is one of the oldest. Far from it, 5000 years should be considered recent. It's certainly the LARGEST culture, and has been for a long time, but not the oldest by a long shot. For example, there is hard evidence of Celtic culture dating back 12.000 years and some evidence (in North America!) which suggests that Celtic culture may be 50.000 years old. Aboriginal culture is another example, and has been traced back a whopping 60.000 years.

Also off topic, but many Chinese people find this "fact" something to be proud of. Shouldn't they actually be ashamed about it? Its very...parochial. A quote from the acclaimed professor of anthropology at the University of Amsterdam, Geert Hofstede, to answer the question "What is Culture?" : "Culture is the collective programming of the mind". Chew on that - brainwashing :)