@JJ
Maybe @Dudeson's isn't an English teacher - one of my high school students is already learning quantum mechanics in his physics class. I don't know if it's at the same level as my ancient university class (doubtful because of the math requirement - but one never knows) - but still - quantum mechanics in high school? I swear I feel dumber and stupider with each passing generation - good thing we old flatuli are cunning, sneaky, and conniving eh?

Hope you enjoyed your trip to San Diego and especially Coronado. Don't forget brunch at the Hotel Del and if the weather's good - catch the sunset there! The good life!

@laotou

'the more I learn, the more I realize just how ignorant I am. What's with that?'
Surely that is enlightenment ;-)

Actually I agree that being a good teacher is largely about temperament and experience. I hope I did not convey any arrogance about my wife holding an actual teaching qualification. I'm sure it was of some benefit to her in the classroom, but I think she learnt more helpful things in her first few years of experience than she did at university anyway!
If you encounter people who are arrogant because they hold a teaching qualification, then you have my commiserations. I'm sure there are people like that in any field.
I think the irony is the arrogance of those saying they are qualified to be a Foreign Teaching Expert in China merely because they have a degree which is unrelated to teaching. Many are good teachers, because of their temperament and experience. We know that practically employers look for degree holders, but I think we can all agree that a degree alone (whether in teaching or aeronautics) does not make one a good teacher.

There are also those with a chip on thier shoulder. They can be spouting incorrect information as FACT and then get shot down by someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
The shot down person then cries 'arrogance'.

Often those who are not qualified cannot see how 3-4 years of study can actually make someone think and perform better.

How can I say this? Because I was one of those ignorant toads with a chip on my shoulder (without realising) until I actually studied. And guess what? The more I learned the more I realised how ignorant I was. I learned that I had known very little.
We learn a surprising amount of transferable skills doing a degree, and even more doing a masters degree. These lessons make us better teachers than we would have been without that experience.

Would I be a better teacher with a teaching certificate? Yes, all relevant knowledge makes us perform better.
It is also important to recognise that just because my degree is not in teaching, it does not make everything in my degree not relevant to teaching.

Wow, seems there are some sensitive people in the teaching sector. Or perhaps there is a lot of pressure.
I have only done a little teaching in China. I found it challenging. I'm sure that the background of my degrees (none in teaching) helped me do it better than if I hadn't done that study. However I found I was not a great teacher. Perhaps with further training and experience I would have improved. But perhaps some of us are just not suited to be teachers. No matter what our education.
So I can appreciate those who are good teachers. But as I have said, it is not a degree alone that makes one a good teacher. I agree it can help, but it is only one part of everything that makes a good teacher.

@Dazzer
Wow you really hate that guy,huh?
I'm not the worlds biggest fan of his work but I think that anyone quoting his work to discredit himself as a teacher, might go a bit far.

I'm not an expert........(break)......., .....Just kidding, I am an expert.
And to my knowledge there is a relation between teaching and Maslow's theory about dependency of needs.

@JJ and Janice
I guess we are already at that level where the spelling of a word is more important than its meaning? Yep, you caught me, and since my preparation and attention to detail for my students and classroom is literally "EXACTLY" the same, as posting in a forum, I must be a terrible teacher. Just for the record I never proofread my forum posts. I guess, now I have to quit my job, divorce my wife, shoot my dog, or vice versa, because my spelling problem probably proofs a lot of things I lack in life....haha.
If you are a teacher, there are a few good books that talk about correcting, in and out of the classroom, and if direct corrections are: "useful or not useful"? I give a little hint.....it's not the useful one.

Dudeson
You discredit yourself and you don't even know why.
Perhaps you need to do some more study of more recent and more relevant ideas that are applied to the field of education. Not to mention linguistics.

Please guys don't misunderstand I am not talking down on a degree since it is nice to learn plenty of things and learn some academic research techniques.
I am also sure that some fields absolutely need and should require a degree. I just think that teaching isn't one of these.

Not saying it doesn't need any testing or exams but spending 4 years for an edu degree and another 1 or 2 to specialize just to become a primary school teachers is overshooting the goal I'd say.

Teaching is an art and as much as painting, sculptur or filmaking it needs talent and skills and of course EXPERIENCE. and only acquired by practice, much more than it needs a proof to spend 4 years sitting on a chair and reading material (I know I am over-exeggerating).

My point is it would be wonderful for teachers to learn in College what is really needed in their daily work. Realistic learning of what a teacher needs and does.

And that is not happening at the moment.

@Dazzer, I went back to University getting a degree in a field I already mastered, just to have the degree. I had to throw the towel becasue it was so frustrating that there wasn't anything useful to learn it was just about theory discusing writing esays and other things that cost a lot of time and got the lecturer saying bravo to everyone.

This guys teaching the future teachers has actually never ever taught. When I approached him with some tricky questions or was so disrespectful to question him or the material he chose, my grades started failing.
He wasn't the only one and I wasn't the only teacher with experience having the same problem. That was the arrogance I meant, some degree holders carry their academic excellence the same way.

Nonetheless I don't treat anyone better or worse I actually still prefer to interview degree dudes but they rarely meet the requiremtns in the classroom or they pay demands are far over the norm.

Study vs. Life
I'd say two years in a real life working environment beats 4 years of study by far. And "JUST" working as teacher doesn't mean you don't have to do self study and read crap-loads of material and go with trial and error.

So experience goes more than degree by far and every HR person I know would emphasize it.

For the record I have an education degree that is state of the art, I teach English one other foreign language, several arts, and P.E. and please don't misunderstand, I have a valid teaching degree that is just plain awesome not because it's woth the paper it's been written on but the training you had to go through to get it, was absolutely fantastic. All pratical applications, just the theory you needed and constant peer observations.

So that's the difference I was trained to teach and got a paper that doesn't mean much . While many other learned about teaching and got a paper that proves that they learned little about the profession of teaching.

I trained teachers with a degree and it took me at least half a year for them to becoem independent enough to perform an alright job.

Furthermore I trained and advised HR, Marketing and Sales, even helped complete school systems with great results.

So I have a tiny bit of a clue about the business. But it's hard for my superiors to accept and it even got me fired becasue I stood my ground and I was told I don't know what I am doing, due to my lack of degrees.

After I got fired they followed my advise and things got better.

Dunno if that is the perfect world of academics but I am done with it. Studying somethong completely different now, (art) and it's a pleasure and relief even it taking 6 hours every day after work.

Other teachers without a degree in the teaching field needed less help. and I did a bit research by having company surveys and they said they needed the job, or they love it, (again not all of them there are bad teachers there too are some jerks) but in general their work motivation was better and more steady.

Look there are good teachers and there are plenty less shiny diamonds (to use laotous synonym and carry it a bit further) but they are still pretty valuable small diamond just getting the right cut. Waiting for the big diamond is good but cutting less good ones is better, then working with certified gemstones.

A lot of teachers told me they wanted to change their major but were already in their 6th semester so they didn't want to throw it away, that isn't the degree I am looking for.

Again I hired teachers with degree and 2 of them have been fantastic. Others were worse than all the other applicants. (in a major China City).

So maybe I am arrogant or naive or just plain rude. I chose my employees only by skill degree or not is the last thing I worry about and the HR guys I worked with selected by experience and the teacher or a teacher interviewd and the whole teaching team discussed the new teacher before hiring.

Works great and I never had to fire a teacher ever....Ever!!

Maybe I am a jerk (I hope not) but worse than being a jerk for me is doing a bad job and taking money for something that I can't or don't deliver in teaching or leading a school.

Back to the Visa, for everyone reading, that ws the OP.

It is tricky and I heard there are changes being made by Beijing PSB and it might get easier for talents not from the field. So let's hope and stay in the grayarea of working in China.

I agree with Quester, a forum should get along without too much sensitivity even if a questionable quote has been written. In the end it's just a job. It's probably the only one were it's such a scandal if not holding a degree in it.
I even heard of an engineer that is so talented, that he could work for a mojor company. So why not in teaching, its not that much you can mess up there if you have good intentions.

Sorry for the long post....I have a passion for teachiing so it measn a lot to me.

You have written a litany of examples of where there have been problems in the Dudson-teaching machine interface. No one else knows what they are doing. What is the common denominator?

You say at one place things got better after you left because they started to do as you said. Maybe things just got better after you were fired mate.
Have you considered that?

Yes I did consider that but, if I sucked so bad then it's weird that they tried to hire me back right after that genius was fired.

About my litany I was writng more general earlier but it seems like that wasn't acceptable either. So since I have never really wrote that explicit I figured I give it a try. I think I won't do that again in the future.

Ask any headmaster or teacher manager or whoever has a similar position without holding a degree in the teaching fileld about this and you will hear similar stories about this subject it is crazy industry.

I wonder, if the comments here are only about opposition or is it that people here really think that a job that requires an academic title can only be performed on a professional level if you have a degree even if it's not the one for that specific job? Study or die (with a blue collar).