Jonathan,

I don't think your post is "racist" (as its directed against "Kunmingers", not "Chinese", and "Kunmingers" do not constitute a "race"). But I do think its rather ignorant and overgeneralizing.

I understand that you and your children were put at risk and you in your frustration wrote this post. I'm sorry you had that close-call. I'm sure I would be angry too.

Of course there are lots of bad drivers in Kunming who break the rules and endanger people all the time.

But why do you have to generalize from some bad drivers amongst the pool of all Kunming drivers and imply that they are all bad? Surely this is not the truth.

In my two years in Kunming I have never been in an accident, close call, etc. I ride a bicycle. I ride defensively. Before I came to China I knew the traffic would be more dangerous than in my home country of America. This is to be expected. So I adjusted my riding style to the local conditions. Maybe I should knock on wood. But I do believe if one simply pays good attention to the road, one can avoid most accidents. That means even if there's a green light, make sure you check that the intersection is clear to cross and there are no idiots running the red light.

Also...if you think Chinese drivers are bad, then you obviously experienced traffic in Vietnam or India. Easily 10 times more dangerous than China.

By the way, the correct pinyin spelling of minivan is not mien boa che, it's mianbao che.

@Geogramatt - the UN defines racism as '...any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national or ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.' anti-Kunminger sentiment could therefore be seen as 'racism'. howerver, that's clearly not what jonathan intended so let's not condemn him for that!

it's obviously true that driving in other cities/countries is equally bad if not worse then in KM but that doesn't make it OK. a large percentage of KM drivers do drive badly (compared to drivers in many western countries) and the majority appear to lack consideration for others.

i cycle here and i've only been knocked off once in two years so far ( by a driver pulling out of a junction without looking). the amount of accidents and near-misses i've seen and been involved are a pretty clear indicator of the low driving standards here.

Jonathan (and others), i completely agree with you. that said, i can't see anything changing anytime soon.

oh... and to answer the original question, the drivers here either don't know or don't care. i would suspect that it's a varying combination of the two!

in China, being polite and civil are considered as the signs of weakness.

I think they should knock down all the buildings to make way for more streets and parking lots. We need more cars!

Worst mini-buses I saw were in Shenzhen, driven like mopeds would be.
These were the grey Toyota 20 seaters.

Thank you all for your contributions.

Update...

Within the last month, again, I have been forced down on the road, this time by another person riding a motorbike (on the sidewalk none-the-less), where his important life meant he had to try to squeeze by me and a fence so that he could get to whatever important event he was headed a few minutes quicker. And YES both my boys were on the bike with me.

Now I am considering not taking my boys on the motorbike with me anymore, but they really enjoy our weekend jaunts on the bike.

Also, twice I have been skipped in line at the ATM which resulted in arguments when I pointed out that myself and several other people were waiting in line and ended without apology.

I have lived all over the world and, including other places in China, and I find the people in Kunming the most unsophisticated, rude, impolite and generally without class that I have encountered anywhere. I suppose it is not their fault, they are simply a product of their environment. But, shouldn't all people try to improve themselves and 'do unto others as they would have done to them'?

Come on - this is 5,000 year old simple logic and way of living amongst other people.

Do you suppose that the people that endangered my children want others to cause harm to their children? Do the people that insensitively skip the lines want to have others skip ahead of them should they be waiting to do something?

Sorry, I cannot think of an excuse for these people! My suggestion is that, if they cannot obtain basic common courtesy, they should go back to the mountain village from which they came and live amongst the other people that are uneducated and bot be allowed around others that are.

Criminals that cannot live by the rules of society are sent to jail! Many people have said that this is just the way Kunming people are... is that what we say when people break the law in other places in the world or do we remove them from society?

Sure the weather is good here and there are many nice places to visit nearby, but..

It is becoming a quality of life issue for me. Do I need to continue to put my children's lives in danger and live amongst people that cause me unneeded frustration when life is so short and there are other places to live where we will not encounter these issues?

To answer the question 'why don't I just leave?' my children's mother is here and I think it is important they are close to their mother. But is it worth the risk of injury or death - I am starting to think not.

Jonathan

I would say it is :
80% what @ debasser said and

20% what @flower 01 said.

I also think that some of the road rules on 'give way/yield' go back to the days of the horse and cart. But these are not appropriate for high concentrations of motorised vehicles.

On the good side here, I have only ever seen on instance of road rage, and that was in Shanghai. But there again, rage is not acceptable in this culture, but is more permissible in the West. Whereas, driving like an ass is much less permissible in the West than it is here.

You don't have to drive like a selfish ass here, but I have found that it does help.

Jonathan

I sympathise, but it is not just Kunming. In fact Shanghai is much worse for queue hopping.

Part of it is Confucian 'us and them'. If you are not one of 'us' (family or network) you really are not important.

Linked to this is the culture of 'don't get involved'. Is someone is behaving badly say nothing. This means there is a lack of negative feedback.

Therefore, with no visible punishment for bad behaviour, bad behaviour is indirectly rewarded. e.g. If nobody pulls you up for pushing to the front, you get served quicker and your strategy is successful.

Part of it is face. If there are sanctions for poor behaviour, you will never know because of face. If you behave poorly you can lose face. But is someone tells you that will also cause you to lose face. If I cause you to lose face, I also lose face.

If you lose too much face you can become one of 'them. You will never be told that you are now seen as one of 'them'.

You won't know that you have been cut off from some resource, or contacts, because of face.

Living in a big city is anonymous, and so is driving a car. Little risk to face. So do as you want.

Part of it is also the legacy of the cultural revolution. Where being sophisticated singled you out.

And so for those who lack awareness of the impacts to themselves and their own face, they really don't see a reason to give a flying frigg about anyone else.

TigerTiger -

Funny you should mention road rage. After I wrote the last post I though, aside from the respect for law and common courtesy, another reason people in the West may not be so rude or dangerous is that there is a chance someone might take matters into their own hands and just kick their ass and teach them a lesson.

I do not condone violence, but what to do when the people responsible for keeping the roads safe in Kunming are not doing their jobs?

I agree that driving my truck more aggressively does help the situation (I have a BIG SUV), but there is less danger of personal injury in the truck. I cannot take the same risks in the motorbike.

Regarding Shanghai. I also lived in SH for three years and agree there are many A type personalities, but there is a certain restraint on the aggressiveness in SH that is missing here. Hard to explain, but I think you will understand my meaning.

I do not agree totally with the historical analysis because I have not encountered the same level of issues in Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen or even in Chengdu. Honestly, I think is the lack of education (both children and adults) here along with a self-interest that prohibits the people from caring about either bettering themselves and considering others.

If the officials in KM want to rise to the levels of the aforementioned cities, they should be aware of the issues and do something about it.

I am an investment banker and, prior to recent problems, had decided to invest some money into Kunming. Now I cannot see investing money here and I believe other people who consider investment in KM will eventually invest their money elsewhere for the same reasons that lead me to my decisions.

Kunming could have been Chengdu, but look at the difference in economic development in the two cities. This largely due to the infrastructure and the environment Chengdu created and Kunming lacks.

Personally, I would like to get the kids mother to agree to move to HK where the people are civilized, there is a good education system and a healthy business environment.

Oh yeah, and HK has Pizza Hut thin crust pizza ;-)

JM