There is nothing so good for the human soul as the discovery that there are ancient and flourishing civilized societies which have somehow managed to exist for many centuries and are still in being though they have had no help from the traveler in solving their problems. (Walter Lippmann)

No souls here at all, just egos.

Grasshopper:
All of the Communist propoganda must have gone to your head. All you do is stick for the Chinese people like they are greatest thing that ever walked the face of the earth. All they are is a bunch of sneaky, uncivilized nongs.

I see you walking around Kunming. You must be one of those douchebags from France or somewhere in Western Europe...hahaha Go stick some cheese up your butt.

I'm staying clear of this thread...Interesting though.

Grasshopper, I am surprised you are not Chinese. From your posts it assumed that you are. I am surprised, but stand corrected.
BTW, pushing this thread into govt policy discussion... " Let's say the U.S. again. Constantly creating wars only to make excuses to invade other countries under the premise of "freeing" the people and liberating them from backwardness.", does not alter the facts about "society" issues. These are 2 very different things. To make judgments about people based on their govt's policy is just ridiculous. I never care about govt things, and only judge people as individuals. I am American, and have lived in several countries, and certainly traveled to many more. I do not hold to US govt foreign policy, and in fact left the US immediately after Bush was re elected. I grew up protesting the Vietnam war, and willing to go to jail for my belief against this US aggression. I feel the same about Iraq and Afghanistan. But I always knew the US would lose out in the end with their insane foreign policies. We are now watching the final death knell of the USA. I am more than happy to have made the decision to leave the US, and not be a part of all it's BS. However I will always be an American.

If you were sensible, you will lose the tagging of any countries citizens to it's govt policies. If you really have traveled as you say you have, how you can make this statement? This doesn't reflect well on your intelligence.

As for the Chinese people, I haven't met one yet that gives a crap about the CCP. Even some of my high party friends quietly disagree with most policies here.

People all over the world are just simply trying to get along and provide for their family. Don't judge any individual based on their governments actions. Americans included.
Now let's get back to the original subject.......

Gaoxing's comments – all of them (that I've read), but perhaps this post in particular – display a misguided and dangerous ignorance and racism that is very prevalent among westerners. It is often a subtle and subconscious attitude (though in Gaoxing's case, not so) and perhaps all the more insidious for its subtlety. I say this, and make the below comments, as a white westerner (Australian) myself who is also prone to displaying the same ignorance and racism. I just try to keep reminding myself of the broader context of these issues and hope that I have some success in doing so, and thereby combating my own ignorance.
Gaoxing's comments are actually made completely out of context, in that he puts forward a selected list of gripes (couched in offensive and partial language) devoid of any examination of the whys and wherefores of the activities/behaviours set out. I believe, from my own experience and observation, that many westerners are prone to a conscious or subconscious sense of entitlement or superiority. That is, many of us believe that things are better – more developed, more prosperous, cleaner, more polite - in western developed countries because westerners inherently do things better and are therefore entitled to success and prosperity. Again, this view is often subconscious, but all the more dangerous for being so. This view ignores the fact that the relative pace of development between cultures and countries is largely a matter of geographical and historical circumstance, not simply ability or entitlement. (For a more considered and erudite examination of this issue than I can provide, see "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond). It also ignores the benefits derived by western developed countries from the history of imperialism and the use of technological advantages to exploit less developed cultures and countries.
In more simple terms, the point is that it's easy to play nice, be polite and share when you have lots of stuff and a reasonable amount of space. My ancestors were barbarians who ran around the Scottish highlands in the mud wearing skirts and eating sheep entrails. The main reason why I don't do those things myself, and wouldn't even if my family still lived in Scotland, is simply because of economic development, including the level of resources and infrastructure enjoyed by Australia. Availability of infrastructure and space are particularly important issues in respect of some of the behaviours to which Gaoxing refers. For example, one is more likely to push, and less likely to queue, if one cannot be reasonably confident of when the next bus will arrive. I also believe that there is another not often recognised reason for the prevalence of some behaviours in China that would be considered rude if done publicly in the west. That reason is that many Chinese people may simply not have the same concept of a separation between appropriate public and private behaviours as many westerners do, since there is so little private space and time available to most Chinese people. (That's just my own theory and I'm happy to stand corrected if Chinese people believe it's inaccurate).
Let me give you a small, but illustrative, anecdote. I have lived most of my adult life in Melbourne, Australia. In recent years, the quality of the public train system in Melbourne has started to decline (due to a combination of mismanagement and underspending). I was fortunate enough, in the last couple of years before I left Melbourne, to seldom need to take peak hour trains. Perhaps it is because I only occasionally took peak hour trains in that period that I was able to notice the change in behaviours. But in any case, as train cancellations increased and the service became less reliable, when I did take peak hours trains I could see people's behaviour on the platform and in the carriages become more rude and things like pushing increase. It only took what was actually a comparatively modest diminution in the availability of infrastructure for a few small cracks to start appearing in the veneer of civility. Most of the 1.3 billion people in China live in an area that is a similar size to Australia. If Australia was similarly densely populated, with a similar per capita level of resources/infrastructure, I don't believe that Australians would be as well behaved as the average Chinese person is. I suspect that the same might be true of most or all other western developed nations.
I agree that spitting in public, pushing, littering etc. are poor behaviours and any place in the world can be improved by reducing the prevalence of these kinds of behaviours. But please, if you are able, do not make comments and judgements about some of the behaviours that you see in China without also – at the same time – properly acknowledging the broader circumstances and causal factors. Perhaps, instead of bemoaning these behaviours (which is all too often done in an unfairly desultory manner) try to be amazed that, under all the circumstances, society in China works as well as it does (and ask yourself whether your home country would work as well in equivalent circumstances).

First and foremost...gaoxing. you clearly are not a happy person. good luck with that.

bucko... apologies. but, my intelligence will never be in question as long as the bi-polar condition does not set in as is gaoxing's. with that in mind... i thought government was the people... in theory? and so, society is a direct reflection of government. no? for the people and by the people? anyway, no tagging here from me anymore. people are people no matter what. regardless of what we have been exposed to from birth under any government. true? apologies again for using the U.S. as an example. any country including my own (Canada) and China could be used as an example. even though one is born into a society of a certain society (government) we are all children of the universe on this thing we call earth. hence, i refer to something said earlier about "us" and "them". do you really think because you are born on a tiny speck of the earth called "china", "america", "canada", "Britain" that you "are" one of those? come one. wake up. we are all born of this Planet "we" call EARTH! as for all the society crap...it is just different layers of the onion my friend. try not to cry too much...it is the way it should be.
so, what was the original subject? the lonely kid not so gaoxing?

Livo1. Dare I say...you are intelligent. Thank you for the input.

I was actually quite surprised and shocked to initially see all these agreeing comments to this shallow outing from "Gaoxing" popping up.

Thank you Grasshopper and even more Livo1 to bring some sense into this thread.

Livo1, I was contemplating to write a similar comment, but you said it all: thanks again! Saves me some time :-)

This shallowness I mentioned is clearly a result of a dramatic impotence to integrate into Chinese society in any way, and at the same time not showing any effort to get into "the reasons why". Objectivity is so crucial, but o-so scarce

agreed. we should thank gaoxing. from ignorance comes bliss. pleasure everyone! peace out.

Livo1 - ah you fell for gaoxing's troll. Just ignore his derogatory.

Gaoxing aside - why is it, that when we share our various experiences as either expats or locals - those who have different experiences insist on criticizing our experience(s) and casting aspersion on our intelligence or lack of equivalent experience simply because we haven't seen or heard the things you've experienced?

As an example - I lived in California and make a comment about some great or hideous thing about california or its people - then another party will say they're from somewhere else or have travelled somewhere else and I lack their experience and am therefore stupid.

I like China's central government - as an outsider looking into China, I see how they are working VERY hard to raise the standard of living and adjust to becoming a powerful global citizen - which is somewhat democratic regardless of your politics. I know that the government has made many many historically painful mistakes - but they're working to fix those errors step by painful step. Meanwhile - we have internet. So what if it's censored - we still have QQ, google.hk, yahoo, etc.). The foreign media goes polar when they address censorship in China. They always neglect to mention the good parts of China's censorship - no internet gambling, no porn (debatable to some), low drug consumption.

And I've always commented the USA's biggest shame is the rampant crime in the nation's capital. Instead of fixing the problem what do our lawmakers do? They live in their ivory tower suburbs oblivious to the plight of the citizens immediately around them. We may criticize the central government for this and that - but I don't know of many people - foreigner or domestic - who are afraid of walking around and exploring Beijing (during normal hours).

I am truly saddened by the USA's stubbornly consistent foreign policy blunders and by their repeated abuse of their own citizens. The lack of mutual respect between the government and its citizens is escalating at an alarming rate, demonstrated by the recent rapid catalysis of the tea party political movement, the increasing spread of homegrown militias and survivalists, and expats who fled in protest. The USA needs and is waiting for a strong and righteous visionary leader coupled with a strong and righteous visionary government to change it's haphazard course. The call to democracy has self imploded as the USA itself begins to self implode through reckless arrogance.

Despite gaoxing's diatribe - he/she still manages to point out painfully obvious discomforts of some parts of China - yet despite those criticisms - we long-term kunming expats all choose to plant our roots here. Why? ...And why is gaoxing still here? That is a real mystery to me.