I think it wonderful that a Chinese person (Laotou) writes the most sensible comment on this subject.

Actually, the subject is sociolinguistics, and some would benefit, initially, from simply knowing the difference between ESL and EFL.

Just my two pennies worth!

I feel like this thread was started specifically to bait people into argumentative and possibly generalized responses. I also think that those commenting on either side of the discussion need to take a second look at the original question. The preference of schools for American English is simply due to the overwhelming number of American native speakers to all other native English speaking countries. see graph: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language

Laotou, as a non-native English speaker, please keep your comments and opinions to yourself. British English and American English are the same language. What you have suggested in this thread is that different dialects of a given language are inferior to others. Perfect example, standard (Beijing dialect) pu tong hua and Kunming hua. Using your assessment process, the "harshness" of Kunming hua makes it inferior to its parent language, despite having a vocabulary that exists entirely outside that of pu tong hua.

I will close, again siting wikipedia, which only offers one "English" in its search engine language options.

The General Explanations at the beginning of the Oxford English Dictionary states:

The Vocabulary of a widely diffused and highly cultivated living language is not a fixed quantity circumscribed by definite limits... there is absolutely no defining line in any direction: the circle of the English language has a well-defined centre but no discernible circumference.

How did a discussion on language get lowered to personal attacks???

many people have personal feelings about language since it's closely tied to culture... the personal attacks are more based on the fantasy that a country has a single culture, and that studying it somehow automatically makes them better, or something... meh, I want some ovaltine.

I think we are starting to confuse two different issues here. The original debate is why do Chinese language school differentiate between American Natives vs British Natives vs. Aussie Natives, etc. The reason for this, as JJ and/or Janice said, is pragmatic. While we can agree that both American English, British English, Australian English are all English, the colloquialism, mannerisms, euphemisms, the cultural references, even the vocabulary set used by different countries are all quite different.

As to what Onobaron said, unless I misread something, I didn't get the impression that laotou was stating one was inferior over the other, just how he believes they are different. By the way, it is (using a unscientific survey) agreed among the Chinese, (including Kunming locals) that Kunming hua and it's derivative, mapu hua, is vastly inferior to pu tong hua. This is not due to an objective assessment, but rather through indoctrination in grade school that the only proper language is pu tong hua. A lot of my Chinese friends do not prefer that their children learn their local dialect simply because they don't want their children stigmatized due to their accent.

Another point is that most people like Kiwi, is comparing the differences between American and British English to Shanghai putonghua and Beijing putonghua. I don't feel this is accurate.

A more accurate comparison is the difference between a main lander Chinese and a Taiwanese Chinese. Both would argue that they are speaking proper Chinese. However, if let say you were to learn your Chinese on the main land, however fluently you speak and is accepted by locals, if you were to speak the same way in Taiwan, you would probably be gawked at awkwardly simple because of the perceived bias. Now, I'm not saying there is a bias between American English and British English, just merely making a point. If you want to use your Chinese in Taiwan, you'd be better off learning from a language school that teaches Taiwanese Chinese. And if you are coming to main land China, you'd be better off learning from main land Chinese.

But that's only an suggestion and not a hard rule. I think too many people are taking this issue too personally.

Finally, to close out, to all of you old enough to remember, "Can we all just get along?" (People outside the US probably are scratching their heads now. See my point?)

JJ
Thanks - before i responded, I did a quick profile on jimsc which revealed he/she occasional gets fired up on the forums. That's good - keeps me sharp and can sometimes provide both a contrasting point and also reveal how others feel. jimsc and onobaron were quite unhappy with my responses - so that tells me that even though I'm trying to be polite and non-contentious - I'm having the exact opposite effect in quite a strong way. As executive managers - we need to deal with all flavors of people without trying to hammer them into a mold as is frequently done in Asia. I try to see things through other people's eyes when a contrasting point is made - although flame wars between company staff is not tolerated or permitted, executives are not held to that standard - they are nevertheless expected to communicate in a civilized and constructive manner a la great social, religious, and philosophical leaders.

Bernie
Your response (the paragraph which is on topic) is the an eloquent and succinct response to my wordy occasionally inflammatory diatribe. Humble bows and respect.

Onobaron
This is a forum used for comments and opinions - and since your basis for banning is faulty...not gonna do it. Flaming happens - close one eye, look the other way. And for the record - how many non-native English speakers do you know can can respond this fluently with mostly correct grammar, punctuation, and vocabulary? Even the tourism students rarely display this level of language ability (without native speaker assistance). I'm a native English (British) speaker with an American accent...assuming Australian flavors of English are considered English. My family is ancient, well established, and famous (in both good and bad ways) both in Kunming and throughout China - yet I still prefer the more melodic Putonghua over Kunming hua, guangdong hua, etc - it's a personal preference. Non-native English speakers choose dialects for a variety of reasons, including preference for a particular sound. That doesn't mean I wouldn't like the ability to converse in Kunming Hua.

As for Kiwi - I'll take him/her at face value as I would a friend looking to start a conversation - regardless of intended or non-intended incendiary potential. As an outsider to the language schools (both commercial and univ sponsored), the schools are market driven - they only respond to what the community desires. Kunming and Yunnan are tourism magnets - with the predominance on non-domestic tourists from the USA - we can check the numbers with the gov tourism dept - but I suspect it's not and overwhelming statistic (like 3/10 as opposed to 9/10).

Also - if language students want to work abroad - (when the economy picks up) - there are simply more jobs in the USA than in all the other English speaking countries (except India) combined. I would venture the source is related to economics as Chinese tend to be pragmatic as a culture.

Based on jimsc and onobaron - I'd guess you're both American with powerful and strong patriotic tendencies. Every sword cuts in two directions, every coin has two sides. I may understand in part the source of your responses - can you see mine? And before this turns into a nationalistic flame - I'm also an American citizen - I've done far more than 95% of the population to contribute to America's military strength for the next 15+ years (and I quit that industry almost 20 years ago) - but to many Americans I'm still just another chink pretending to be an American. I don't fit the mold of a "good chink" - I don't shut up when oppressed, nor will I allow myself to be abused - I have dignity. I'd rather be a foreigner in my country of descent than an outcast in my home country.

Laotou, my criticism of your post has nothing to do with patriotism or racism. It has to do with your original comments being completely asinine. Yes, I wasn't diplomatic about it, but that's because you sound so full of yourself.

First, you absurdly insisted that there "MAY be a difference" between British and American English, when it's obvious that there ARE many differences.

Second, you asserted that British English is "less harsh" than American English as if that were a linguistic fact rather than a personal preference.

Third, you claimed that American English is more popular in Chinese schools because its humor is more simple, as if that, rather than market opportunities and comparatively overwhelming influence of US pop culture, were really relevant.

Don't play the race card, as if I or anyone else wants to oppress you for not being a "good chink." I just want to point out how dumb your original comments were. If you're not native speaker, then I am sorry for being such a dick about it. But really, think about the nonsense in your first post before your accuse those who disagree with you of racism.

@jimsc: Your comments display an inability to sensibly discuss this subject, at the level that others are discussing it. Laotou's original comment has long passed and, where it may have been needed, has been explained in more detail. 'Cool' is now used to describe a piece of fashionable clothing - it originally described temperature.

ToastMasters would welcome your attendance at their next meeting. :-)

We welcome ALL to Toastmasters every Wed nite. Goals are to improve public speaking and leadership with the added benefit of improving English.

Since we are not a "debating society" - - subjects of politics, religion and sex are not suitable topics.

If you want more info - - email:

jjfletcher168@yahoo.com

Cheers - - JJ

Onobaron, was not looking to bait anyone, was just curious about what other people think about this and wondering whether I am alone in telling my local friends to get this unimportant question out of their heads.

Also, there are a lot more English speakers in India than the US.

Also, if looking at economic reasons, trade between India and the US is set to mushroom and become enormous...

The point I will make is that if a Chinese person is looking to learn English then worrying about American or British English should be well down the list of things to consider, and if someone is looking to learn the language effectively they should be looking to get exposure to various accents, British, American, other native and non-native accents. If institutions advertise on the basis of a certain accent then they are feeding on ignorance.

Cheers.