that said, most evangelists i've known closely for extended periods of time (mostly in the US southern baptist, episcopalian, and US mormon traditions) have not endeavored to convert people in selfish interest, but rather in the (misguided, in IMHO) belief that their souls (the converted) will actually be saved.

according to them, they honestly believe that they are doing something good by "turning people on" to God. this, be it misguided, is altruism - helping people for the sake of THEM.

i acknowledge the fact that my sample size is rather small, and that there really are hell-bent fire-and-brimstone missionaries out there.

furthermore, i've never actually been bothered by missionaries, despite being raised in a relatively "godless" portion of the US. the closest i've been is: once while i was doing ethnography in the southern US - i was approached by a US southern baptist who wanted me to complete a survey about religious beliefs for him. of course i was cautious, but this is what he said, paraphrased from memory:

"look, i'm not looking to convert you. if i could 'convince' you to believe in God in these five minutes, there's nothing that would lead me to believe that the next guy would convince you not to, in the next five minutes. that's simply not on my agenda."

i completed the survey.

IMHO, he did his Christian brothers, himself, and me a great service by saying these words, which were surprisingly reasonable at the time. (i'm not so surprised nowadays.)

finally, i agree with tim in a way, that on the whole, missionaries to a whole hell of a lot more than the average guy, as far as raising the standard of living of the poor. how many of us have spent months in the countryside doing carpentry or plumbing work? do the people need it? yes. have you helped out? you answer.

they've never gotten in my face about my atheism. why should i believe that they're out there hurting people? and why should i believe that if they ARE hurting people, that it is out of selfishness?

show me some concrete evidence that "the foundation of society" is being "torn away" and i may consider your opposition to their activities.

so far as i know, the "foundation of society" is free choice, and so far as i can see, our world is a kaleidoscopic view of that process in action.

the groaning tenor of some of these responses, in my view, is the result of some very unhappy people. perhaps some volunteering, according to whatever -isms you subscribe to, would serve as a salve to your self-centered headiness.

Not sure whether Tony was directing that at any of us...certainly not me, I hope! We haven't been acquainted, but I can assure you I'm no missionary.

I don't belive there is any true altruism...when I give a beggar money on the street, I do it because I feel sympathy for him, and in exchange it makes me feel good that I helped someone in need. It's a bit selfish, but the end result is that both of us benefited from it.

While I don't agree with illegal organizations within China that use things like language schools or English corners to proselytize their religious beliefs, I think it's reasonable to give the common Chinese citizen a bit of credit. Some people in China want to become involved, and want some kind of faith. Recent underground religious organizations within China should be proof enough of that. If they're that easily duped with what some would call "missionary tricks," and if the foundation of this society is that easily torn apart and rebuilt in the Christian image, it doesn't really say much about that society or it's people, does it?

For those who say they have no "soul" - - I'm wondering. Did they never have one? Did they give it away? Did they sell it? Or do I see lots of "self-doubt" creeping in?

I often envy those who have "rock-hard" beliefs (faith?) - - they seem to be very comfortable with themselves.

Cheers

I agree with The Swedish Guy.

If you wanna get rich quick, just start your own religion.

I agree with tony for sure.

Fortunately this is not the EU, and China won't commit a suicide in the name of tolerance...

Hey Tim, I definitely wasn't directing my comments towards you. Actually I was building on your comments but forgot to credit you. And to everyone else, I apologize. I got a little too passionate towards the end but I was honestly trying to be objective and voicing the perspective of an average non-believer. I don't have any objections to Christians or missionaries, in fact I know these are some of the greatest people on earth, I do have objections to concept however.

Now my rebuttal to Tanfei, keep in mind I'm not here to insult or abuse, rather use this as an mental exercise.

The definition of selfish is to serve one's interest. Like Tim's example, do you think those converting others really do it because they want to save these people? Or maybe deep down they do it because they get to feel good about themselves and because they believe they can go to heaven? If you tell them, for every soul you convert you have to spend an eternity in hell, do you think they would still do it? When you do something with the expectation of getting something in return, however misguided in the belief in what you are getting back, that's selfishness. Selfishness has a negative connotation but I don't think selfishness is a bad thing. It is only when you are selfish to the detriment of others that it becomes bad.

Point 2: Yes they raise the standards of the poor, but let me play the devil's advocate here. Is that necessary a good thing? Raising the living standard in turn brings about over population and over taxing the planet's resources. For that individual it is a good thing. But how about for the continuation of the species as a whole? Also, raising is a relative concept. By whose concept are you comparing it to? You provide running water, but haven't they existed for thousands and thousands of years just fine with out it? This is the arrogance I'm referring to, you are assuming your method is better than what they had.

In regards to the tearing of fabric. How about the the Crusades, the Spanish conquests? The indigenous people of the Americas can no longer revert to their way of life prior to the arrival. The Egyptians, after having their empire conquered by the Greeks and the Romans had their religion systematically torn down and erased.

Many regions in Africa are now taught to abandon their nomadic and traditional ways and pursue a life of praying to God and raising cattle and crop.

Yes, the foundation of society is a free choice and what ever the majority decides that's the foundation of society.

However, when that choice is being made at tip of the sword, as is the case with crusades and the persecution of many pagan beliefs, is that choice really free? Many dictators in Africa would tell you that they are democratically elected by the people of the country, and this statement is true! What they don't tell you is that the people were grabbed from their home and told to vote for him with an AK pointed at his head.

Tan, do some research and you'll find the many consequences of the Christian moment. I'm not saying the missionaries themselves are bad, but they part of the greater Christian machinery in which they believe they are superior to everyone else and what they do on the ground has a direct consequence on the development of these people and their way of life.

The way I see it is that you don't need to be a Christian with more or less hidden motives to do good for other people but at least these days most Christian missionaries is talking to people (and I guess bribing them with improved living standards and afterlife promises) instead of forcing or demanding conversion. That is something certain parts of Islam hasn't really developed yet. There are lots of Islamic preachers and missionaries in China and in the rest of the world too. Some of them spreading the word with bombs and terror.

What I have against missionaries and religion as a whole is the way it suppresses free thinking and individual freedom. There is no such thing as an afterlife and trying to assure others that there is is frankly delusional and embarrasing in my book. Religion is invented by man. Often by ancient rulers and the ruling class to pacify the lower classes, supply soldiers for war and keep a stable society by promising a glorious afterlife. To me it is a ridiculous notion that people should pray 5 times a day, don't eat this and that, spread the word, fight for the faith and basically live their lives the way other people tell them to or by following an old dusty book made and edited countless of times by priests as is the case with the bible or an old dusty book where there is capital punisment for even discussing or leaving out certain parts of the gospel as is the case with the koran. Communism might be wrong in several ways but the view towards religion sure wasn't one of them.

Tanfei: Stop using words like "kaleidoscopic". It makes you sound gay and makes my eyes rain. Your scooter sucks. :)

Amen brother! (Pun intended)