@ Quester: yes.

I'd add that culture is not something independent of history, economics, social arrangements, etc., and that none of these things are ever static.

True, all those are affecting factors. Going forward from here, what are the options - more lying, less lying, or the same amount of lying to occur in Chinese society? And what factors would bring about those results?

Less lying might be good, but I'm not sure how to get from A to B. Might ultimately involve a far-reaching rearrangement of things.

Quester
fantastic points.

Alien
To some degree, I agree with you.
And let's say that no foreigner here is consciously trying to make a scene and not use certain social tools, to fit in. Complaining about it, even mocking and ridicule it, in forums later that day, is not the same thing.
And if you can read a little Chinese, check out the post, [mainland] Chinese write about travelling and living abroad. Compared to those, the strongest wording here on gokunming, is sweet talk.

Also, I generally don't have any grudges about Asian or even Chinese culture. For example Taiwan, Macao and Hongkong, I have no problems to blend in, and that in my opinion, is because there is a distinctive culture, visible, livable and learn-able.

It is a naturally evolved culture there, things that are useful or virtuous, were/are kept, things that have no use, have been removed. Different to red China, where a Disneylandish version of it is kept artificially alive, for the purpose of public order or whatnot.

So, my question is what defines the mainland Chinese culture? I am not mocking, this is a serious question.

That's why I say there isn't. It doesn't mean that people wouldn't embrace a better more "Chinese" culture, if they had one. It's a incestuous offspring of a few selected Confucian, pseudo buddhist agenda, to feed the needs of a few powerful, of what they think represents an outside image, of a clean asexual, peaceful and harmonious China. Rather, then using the people, to define what they need to have a fulfilling live. And figure it out on their own.

An experiment [I tried] and you can easily try at home with your Chinese friends, spouses or families.

Ask them what shows Chinese culture, what do they really like, what is useful, what makes makes them better as persons and as a country.
[to be fair, I did it vice versa with them about Germany and European countries, that I know about].
You will love the answers, you will get.

After that, we defined what makes a Chinese culture and what makes local culture. It was wonderful, you could see, that,- what Chinese blindly take for their culture, isn't,...-in fact, by definition. When I told them that they were amused, but I quoted something from Confucian philosophy, Buddhism and Daoism [a Childhood obsession].
My father in law, a liberal patriarch, said jokingly, [again], respect, you know more about China than he does, and he asked if I studied philosophy in College.

It is a very beautiful activity, we got the whole family/friends to join in, women complained and compared about this and that. Men went nuts on this and that...the whole bunch, couldn't wait for their turn to speak. We had snacks, food and drinks later on. We were full, laughed, argued, got full and reasonably drunk.

That was the best day we had all together, and we did real culture-communication....Now the point....and I am not just talking out of my *ss, when I am using my friends and family's opinion here.

Chinese disagree with most of the cultural nonsense. Why? Because they aren't some stupid monkey animals. Chinese are as smart [maybe even smarter] and good human beings, most "MUST" turn into what they are, to fit in.

So when foreigners in China demand, " we MUST fit in", we turn into the same bunch. So why move the culture even more backwards.
As people mentioned before we were not hired, or aren't here to be Chinese.

That's why I am against it. And sometimes stand my ground, on drinking or smoking, e.g. I don't care how angry you get, I will not drink or smoke because you want me to. Other things I let go.

Bottom line is, we all strive for the same virtues. And those things that some people think are so cultural and cute and interesting, are not liked or wanted by their very own people.

Thus making [IMO]it not a part of the culture, right? If the majority of people rejects an idea, you wouldn't call it their idea? Am I correct?

Most Chinese extremely dislike their bad little habits and manners, I mean come on, even the government is telling Chinese, to behave inside and outside of China, so it must come form somewhere, right.

And now back to lying, my wife sometimes uses my foreign-ess [after asking me] to make her life with her folks easier. So, when we were dating, she told her family that I don't like lying and all the other foreign habits. She said she is sorry if it causes any problems and she will apologize. But quite from the beginning, they quite appreciated me,- for not lying to them. E.g. when the food was good, I told my mommy, that it is brilliant, and when it was too salty I told her it was to salty but good, and then the whole family started to nod.

They all slowly learned to appreciate a more honest lifestyle, because let's be 'honest' it make things easier, especially around the house.

So that's my take on Chinese culture.
If it would be more genuine, from Chinese for Chinese, I would probably really like it, because it would work better and be helpful instead of being a burden

if you really want to experience the so called "old chinese traditional value/culture", look to the east of, japan, taiwan and korea. :-) as one contributor pointed out earlier, the great cultural revolution in the 60s had steered the junk off course to the heaven of money/power god. lying is becoming a way of power/money show. as i mentioned earlier. if one has the power to dictate what is being "the truth", one will be "right" all the time. not until the top goves up that belief, the society as a whole is not going anywhere else. "

Imagine a dream, of a country where there was no lying. Wouldn't we all want to live there? I tell you what, it starts from every single person who decides not to do it!

In my opinion lying or 'dressing things up' and complete underhand play is more prevalent in Taiwan than possibly anywhere else I have experienced.

Let's not do 'grass is greener' with Taiwan.

Apparently Denmark is the most trustworthy nation, followed by most of the other Scandinavian utopias. Greece was bottom of that poll. How it was conducted I have no idea, gleamed it from a book.

Many a year ago there was a South African produced TV show about foreign teachers living in Taiwan? Does anyone remember that?

@napoleon
about taiwan, are you just saying it to undermine my statement or can you give sone examples. Have you lived there?

Not saying it to undermine you.

How many people from Macau have you encountered?
There's only 500,000 people there, of which they estimate only 180,000 have ties pre 1999.

How I would have gone about undermining your statement would have been the Macau culture part and how you would ever be able to separate it from that of Guangdong.

The Porks weren't brilliant colonialists, they didn't much dab their culture on Macau.

Why so defensive of Taiwan?

Because, I have been there, my best friend is from Taiwan, and so are two of my neighbors.

And Taiwanese culture is very different to the mainland version.