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Life in Kunming

Haali (1178 posts) • 0

and to back up your definitions Hugo, Google says an immigrant is: 'a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.'
Perhaps we should be calling a lot of the people British newspapers call 'immigrants' in the UK 'expats' then, as most of them return to their own country after a while. Of course, a few intend to stay their whole lives, (like Hugo in China) and those ones I guess should be called immigrants. But it seems to me that the unspoken, undefined, assumption/connotation is that an immigrant is a poor person from a poor country, whereas an 'expat' is a not so poor person from a rich country.

Tonyaod (824 posts) • 0

Haali, I think this is in the same vein as foreigner = white face, and foreign language = English here in China. I can't tell you how many times my Asian friends were corrected by the Chinese when they proclaim themselves as "waiguoren".

Asian friend: I am a "waiguoren"
Chinese: No you're not, you are Asian.
Asian friend: I am not from China, so I am a "waiguoren"
Chinese: Yeah, but we know "huangzhongren" (Yellow people) populated your country long time ago, so your ancestors are Chinese and so you are not a "waiguoren"...

And on, and on, and on.....rolling my eyes...

Alien (3819 posts) • 0

Haven't heard a dialogue quite like the one you've presented, but I can believe it. I'm not so sure how typical the last line of the dialogue is, but I've heard stuff like that and anyway I don't know your 'Asian' friends (I assume we're not talking about Pakistanis - the term 'Asian' is used peculiarly in both English and Chinese, and in many other languages). A 'racist' tendency (i.e., belief in 'races', with no clear definition) lies behind this (sometimes vaguely, sometimes rather specifically), I think. Anyway, you're right: 'waiguoren' usually (but not always) generally translates as 'White person', but also very commonly as 'other than 'huangzhongren', although for people with dark complexions and/or some degree of generalized 'African' features tend to be 'heiren' (as so many European speakers use the term 'Black'), as a subclassification of 'waiguoren'.
I also think that the 'waiguoren = European/American/Austrailan whitefolks' equation has a lot to do with the specific history of European/American semi-colonialism/semi-imperialism in China, which obviously has entered the culture in China. Similar to 'falang' (or farang) in Thailand and Laos (from the local pronunciation of 'French').
Perhaps a good reminder of the limits of literalist definitions and translations in practical communication.

Haali (1178 posts) • 0

When me and my wife went to Thailand/Vietnam/Laos she commented 'wow there are so many waiguoren here'. I then pointed out to her that outside of China, she is a 'waiguoren' too. Hard for her to compute. But it is true that it is hard to distinguish between East Asian and South East Asian people, even for people from those regions. People talked to my wife in Vietnamese/Thai/Lao, and she occasionally forgot she was outside of China and talked to them in Chinese, much amusing confusion.

zhudan (204 posts) • 0

@Tonyaod I actually was in a similar dialog once, a year or so ago. I was trying again, fruitlessly, to improve my Chinese and commented at a dinner table with my Ivy and her Chinese friends that other foreigners from places like Vietnam, Korea and such really pick Chinese must faster and better. A couple people laughed (the couple who could understand a little English) and said that those places had "yellow tongues" (their term, not mine) too and can learn Chinese easily and that they all had Chinese blood in them, I guess implying all east Asian peoples descended from some Chinese stock. I don't know actually, it may be true. I don't think so though. I think it can explain the way patronizing and condescending China often views it smaller neighbors. Chinese people seemed stunned that another "yellow" (huangzhongren) can't speak Chinese, and equally amazed when a real waiguoren just says nihao or wobuyao.

A couple times in my area I had a group of boys call me yangguizi, which is a derogatory term for white outsiders. Only twice I think. I have definitely had "f#$@ you" yelled at me more and been called dapangzi (fatso or fatty) by boys more. I am sure this sort of honor goes out to obvious outsiders (white or black) not not to other east Asians since how would anyone know they are outsiders.

But I had read somewhere online a couple years back that a lot of the tighter visa and work requirements and restrictions are not necessarily at all directed exclusively at white or western faces. In fact they are an attempt to also control other Asians who can get into China and essentially blend in better in terms of appearance and language skills. This is a big problem in Guangdong and Guangxi I understand.

Alien (3819 posts) • 0

Ah, the 'blood' thing - I'm afraid my mother thought it was important too (I'm not Chinese, and neither was my mother).
A common folk theory.

The Dudeson's (1106 posts) • 0

It's called Sinocentric worldview .

Everything is made by Chinese, comes from Chinese, should be Chinese, is Chinese and was Chinese.

...on a more serious note.
Chinese only focus and center around China and things Chinese. They traditionally think that they are chosen by god, the maker, [well, there are other religious nutters, in the world].

I went to the Animal museum in Kunming and one student freaked out when I told them that we are all coming from Africa [theoretically] she went nuts she even use the N-word "I am not a ...." in English.

I told her that Chinese human migration is/was not as wide spread as they may think. The idea that Chinese went to Japan and colonized it is crazy, but they actually believe it.

Same with Taiwan, and all around the dotted line down south. And perhaps, every place on the planet.

Actually the Mongolians were much more active in migrating in Asia. And for fun, try to call a Mongolian 'Chinese' and see what happens.

So China, don't p*ss off those Mongolians, they don't like to be called Chinese and they did all the work.

My best friend studied Human Migration, and he said that you can still see markers on people descending from Mongolians [and others]. The blue little dot many have on their butts, hips and upper thighs for example are from Mongolian roots.
DNA sampling in studies, has shown that the Mongolians and other nomads [some Chinese] have been responsible for most migration. But I am not surprised that China claims it all.

Chinese of course don't get that their god chosen entitlement and DNA being the root of all harmony and good, is another [spoiler alert] fake or at least an exaggeration.

Yea I heard that even in Munich one time. I am walking down the street with my wife, and two Chinese girls are talking. "Ta de nanpengyou shi yige laowai."

Very ignorant but still very funny.

Alien (3819 posts) • 0

Much of your description of 'the Chinese' makes them sound a lot like Americans.
Perhaps some Chinese talk about how 'they' colonized Japan, but I think a lot more simply say that the Japanese took on Chinese culture - this idea is usually associated with the Tang Dynasty, and many Japanese are very conscious of the fact of cultural influence/borrowing during that period.
The blue dot does not necessarily refer to Mongolian ancestry, but to the more-closely related ancestry of many Chinese and many Mongolians - it relates to relative commonalities of gene-pool, not just to people classified as, or who culturall 'belong' to, Mongols. I have a friend whose father is Taiwanese, mother is Japanese, who had it as an infant.
Mongols and other nomads responsible for most migration - well, yeah, nomads migrate, by definition - e.g., Arab beduin. Note the number of Europeans who migrated to North America.

Napoleon (1187 posts) • 0

There is a very credible theory that the Asians are more likely to have come from Java than Africa.

Those Mongol genes spread themselves all the way to Syria and Hungary. I was reading an article that said 1 in 6 Hungarians still to this day have oriental genes in their DNA.

If you go far enough back Korea was a part of the Qing dynasty. Until the 1950s they were still using Chinese characters to write with and government documents were kept in Chinese. They have a distinct advantage in studying the language. That, and with the amount of Korean schools in China were lessons are taught in Chinese, they have that as part of their modern learning.

If you go far enough back you'll find that Chinese, Koreans and Japanese are all from the same stock. You'd have to start re classifying gene pools to prove otherwise, just as the French and English, they're from the same stock.

If they wanted to go even further they could probably even say red Indians are in some form Chinese, as they can be trased back to the Heilong River tribes in Northern China.

China is a big place with 56 minorities, it has its fingers in a lot of pies. The Karen in Burma, homeland in Ruili. The Dai from Xixuangbana had an empire that stemmed through Laos and Thailand. The Wa in LinCang have almost annexed WaBang as China and they have their roots as far as the Thai border and Northern Burma.

The Japanese are also from Chinese stock, or an area of which is now China. They based their society on Chinese culture and use a lot of Chinese characters in their written language.

The original natives of Taiwan are the Gaoshan tribes. These people have Chinese as well as Polyneisian roots. Everyone else in Taiwan can probably trace their a destroy back to Xiamen or Zhejiang in some way.

There is historical evidence that could prove any of the claims outlined, some concrete, some would have to rely on sheds. But fact is the area which is now China has a big genetic pull on most of the surrounding countries. Those borders weren't there 200/300/500 years ago.

It would just be arrogance to dismiss your students if that was ever brought up. Chances are the student wouldn't know their arse from their elbow if they had to explain any further than tht statement itself, however the statement could stand on its own.

If the student wanted to get really adventurous they could even say that Chinese DNA were in one or two of the Yemeni Hill tribes, and there would be evidence to prove that.

Hate to rain on everyone's Chinese don't know what they are on about parade here, but in this instance if you got your head in a history or genetics book, these things would pop up in more detail.

Alien (3819 posts) • 0

Unclear how the genes got to Java from Africa, or just when, but they did. Thought question: what makes 'Chinese DNA' Chinese?

At any rate, none of this justifies a belief in 'Chinese blood', or how gene pools help you learn languages. Certainly true that many people, who have other things to do than research & theorize carefully about it, believe things like this, including many Chinese in Kunming.

Some decades ago there were official statements in China referring to Beijing Man as "our ancestor". This is scientifically laughable, and has been for a long time.
Origin of all human 'stocks' is East Africa; naturally the overall genetic frequency of combinations etc. has varied as the species moved out over the earth - few Englishmen went hunting for wives in Yunnan 10,000 or so years ago. .

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