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Patriotism

Posted in: Forums > Living in Kunming • 32 posts • Newest

• • Dad-of-3
    July 30, 2010
    5 posts
  • Recently at the dinner table, my 3 year old daughter and 5 year old son relayed to me a conversation they had with a playmate. Their friend told them their mother hates my wife and I. They asked her why and the playmate's reply was, "Because they are foreigners, and my mother hates anyone who is a foreigner."

    I was not surprised by the negative attitude, but by the strength of the language. I happen to really enjoy living here and enjoy the people as well. It has been an enriching journey learning not just what people do and think, but why.

    I don't think the mother specifically announced her hatred of me personally, and yet I have heard rumblings from others (mostly children) of a strong negative attitude toward foreigners.

    I just wondered if anyone had any thoughts or experiences that would be helpful.

• • liwei
    July 30, 2010
    7 posts
  • ha, why doesn't the mother hate your 3 years old daughter and 5 years old son?

• • Bernie
    July 30, 2010
    87 posts
  • It has been my experience that the word 'hate' is used continuously by English-speaking Chinese, both young and old. When discussed in class, one discovers that weaker similes, e.g., dislike, have not appeared in their vocabulary. So, don't worry too much about it - you probably don't like every Chinese person that you meet.

    Try to discover if the mother is a Buddhist, and explain that 'hatred' is sinful. ;-)

    Oh, and ignore liwei's comment.

• • rejected_goods
    July 30, 2010
    27 posts
  • patriotism? :-) maybe not.

    i hate people who are better than me because they must have taken something from me already and i want the same thing. but i dont know what that "thing" is?:-P
    and i hate people who look not much better than me because they would want something from me and must have taken something from me already :-P

    it seems nothing to do with me being a "patriot" or being a "local?" hahhahah :)))))))

• • liwei
    July 30, 2010
    7 posts
  • Oh, Bernie, why are you suggesting to ignore my doubt? I'm trying to be polite not to point out a lie directly.

• • Dad-of-3
    July 30, 2010
    5 posts
  • Thank you for your comments. I look forward to reading more as the thread develops. I think it can lead to a healthy discussion.

    It is important for long-standing prejudices to be challenged (as mine have been after moving to China).

• • Tonyaod
    July 30, 2010
    120 posts
  • Bias and racism transcends all cultures. Unfortunately, there are bigoted and ignorant people here in China as well. Just ignore it. However, if are up to it, perhaps you can confront the mother and discover the reason for the ignorance and provide a counterpoint. Bewared however, talking to people with strong convictions is like trying to teach a pig to dance. Anything you say will only be used to further their convictions and the use of logic is pointless as they will simply ignore it.

• • Danmairen
    July 30, 2010
    239 posts
  • Unfortunately many Chinese people are stuck somewhere between the "We have 5000 years of history so you should listen to us!" and "We are a developing country so don't expect much from us". Either they'll use whenever it suits their needs. Also for 60 years the CCP has been nurturing a strong sense of nationalism into the people for many reasons so it's hardly surprising that some of them harbor strong sentiments towards outsiders.

• • laotou
    July 30, 2010
    98 posts
  • Dad-of-3
    Welcome to the paradox of Asia. As Tonyaod mentioned - there are just blind ignorant bigots (they hate everyone) and then there are many more moderate Chinese who "hate" foreigners because of their long history of abuse - my family included (we're all US citizens BTW). You all know the story dating from the Opium wars, Japanese invasion, WW2 war crimes (US waived prosecution of most Japanese war criminals as they feared Chinese communism), yellow fever (idolizing Chinese women) etc ad infinitum.

    Hong Kong and Macau were severe "in-your-face" examples of concessions from the opium wars. China has a LONG list of recent gripes with abuse at the hands of foreign powers - so despite it's maturing process - the current form of government is to be highly commended for its guidance of the country to date.

    Hate results in racism and bigotry (take a look at some of the Yahoo-USA News comments to see classical examples of bigotry and hatred in the USA - it seems to be rampant.

    My father went to the University of Nanjing shortly after the end of WW2. As a reminder, the civilian population of Nanjing was decimated by the Japanese during the Japanese occupation (torture, violent executions, bio and chemical experiments on humans) - an obviously heinous war crime - but the USA waived the Nuremburg war trials on that one. So, my father hates Japanese vehemently and was non too plussed with the US response however he offset that with the comment regarding how the USA used it's payment from the Chinese government for opium war reparations (qinghua university). Despite this blanket bigotry, he is always courteous towards my Japanese, American, Spanish, French, etc friends and only has pleasant things to say about them - aka he likes them as individuals.

    So, sharing from my family's experience, hatred is caused by vibrant knowledge of recent past history and a wariness and suspicion based on the worst of the worst. It's a hatred or fear of the unknown - but it's usually not personal - once you get past the "get to know the person" phase. Chinese patriots may still hate all foreigners, while simultaneously liking you - hence the paradox. Hope that helps to explain the Asian paradox. It's not personal - just a rather general pervasive sentiment. Please just let it roll over you like water off a duck's back, live your life to the fullest, share your love of life, family, and culture, and revel in the Chinese experience and be careful too because China also has bad people.

    And yes, the government sponsors patriotism and nationalism, which inadvertently results in bigotry and its derivatives, as they commemorate dates when they freed the country from various foreign oppression (and to be fair - CERTAIN elements of the USA greatly assisted the Chinese war effort during the Japanese occupation). As you may recall, this got a little out of hand a few years ago, resulting in some rioting and the vandalism of Japanese cars and businesses.

    I teach my children somewhat the same thing - but I'm more fair about how I teach my children this philosophy of hatred - however I also show them parallels in Chinese history showing both massive achievements and massive abuses throughout various dynasties - so the general lesson to my children is the world is not a nice place - so they must learn caution in all things - learn how to see and hear through the great wall of BS. I wish the ocean was peaceful - but in reality it's filled with sharks - so just don't be naive.

    And yes - as a US citizen - I share a love hate relationship with our government and it's elected and appointed officials. I love the USA and am only be saddened and disappointed when I observe the massive government abuses while the patriots try to return the ship to it's original course from within and without. I completely disagree that democracy should be pushed everywhere - I'm a huge fan of whatever government benefits the people - especially the farmers - and fits in with other global players.

    Government should be a subtle benefactor as opposed to an overt tyrant. Many Americans are beginning to reel under the yoke of government oppression, corruption, and abuse. When government officials and servants forget they are there to serve the people...but I digress..

    China is still an agrarian based society, the USA is not. Chinese are generally more consumed with pursuing the American dream (house, car, kid, financial security). This can only continue with a strong internal, American, and other foreign economies. China's culture is indeed rich - but China also needs to understand as much as possible other cultures so we can mutually benefit and prosper together.

    So please try to understand the Asian paradox (I say Asian because it exists all over Asia) and try to overlook or ignore the "hate" comment and share culture and respect and neutralize hate one family at a time...and maybe make a new friend.

• • Danmairen
    July 30, 2010
    239 posts
  • Looks as if Laotou is about to open a Kunming chapter of the Tea Party.

• • laotou
    July 30, 2010
    98 posts
  • dang...that was WAY too verbose...and opinionated...I tried to edit out the US politics stuff...but alas...

• • thatguyted
    July 30, 2010
    21 posts
  • religion.

• • rpw37
    July 31, 2010
    5 posts
  • laotou, while no-one can deny that China suffered at the hands of foreign powers, I'd be interested in your view as to why not one Indian that I've met is as hung up on its past humiliation ("guochi" if you must) as the Chinese people I have met? India was completely colonised, China was not.

    Furthermore, can I ask why on earth you would teach your children a "philosophy of hatred" of any kind?! Hatred only breeds hatred. Even the most liberal of the Chinese youth that I have met still say that Japanese people are 'bad in their hearts' or other such similar nonsense. How is the government to be applauded for teaching (for indeed they do) such hatred to the young? In what way does this benefit ANYONE going forward?

    Final thing, if you like people from these countries as individuals, surely it is only an elementary logical step to the next, entirely obvious conclusion - that the 'country' IS the people, and so if you like the people, how can you hate the country? You can certainly hold contempt for, for example, the Japanese wartime administration or the Nazi party, but to label a country on this basis either shows a lack of intellect or willful self-deceit.

    Cultural relativism has its place, but that is not in apologising for deliberate, manipulative hatred.

• • onlyone
    July 31, 2010
    93 posts
  • The point here is some people never learn how to tolerate other peoples cultures and ideas .Yes its fact that a huge number of local citizens look at foreigners by doubtful eyes and i faced this situations many times and in many places in China .All the time people asked weather i am Russian come to play local girls!! .I am not Russian at all neither i am interested in playing anyone .Many occasions i have been asked to pay more for many services and costs just because i am foreigner.some friends "girls" have a strict warning from their families about making friendship with me and the only reason that i am foreigner .I used to that and i love to stay here and i think these things can be overcome by time.

• • JingWei
    July 31, 2010
    20 posts
  • Coming back closer to the initial question.

    I agree that vocabulary limitation might explain the use of such a strong word and thus might not reflect the more subtle nuance of the feeling.

    Dad of 3, I don't know your level in Chinese, but my experience (as a very poor Chinese speaker) is that poor command of the Chinese level somehow offend the locals, especially if you are settled here (a kind of indirect disrespect to the country and their culture). There is a general assumption amongst the chinese I meet that after 2-3 years any foreigners should be able to hold their own in a conversation. That could explain the differential sentiment towards your kids and your wife and yourself.

    From various comments around me I also pick-up on the ambiguous attitude. On one hand Chinese people assumes that foreigners think of themselves above the chinese, bordering on arrogant, on the other hand the desire for a certain idea of western affluence is a very high motivation in people personal and professional choices. I think this is central to the chinese general attitude to foreigners and also help understand how "they" can "hate" foreigners in general and like some of us in particular.

    We all have to remember that, with the exception of the 1980's, China has been mostly closed to foreign cultural interaction for most part of the last 60 years, only really rediscovering a world outside Asia in the last 10-15 years. This is the a long cultural road that will need to be traveled with the background of a governing elite that is very wary of the effect of outside cultural influence.

• • laotou
    July 31, 2010
    98 posts
  • rpw
    1. I don't teach them to hate - I teach them to be cautious with ALL people and regularly admonish them about the worst kinds of things people can do or be and how to recognize the signs - a curse from a college-level psychology course and a long history of employment with typical US corporations. The world is not a nice place - regardless of whether you live in the USA (or the cesspool of the USA - Los Angeles) or anywhere in China. My philosophy for MY children is they must be taught to be conscious and aware of their environment, not talk to strangers, etc. This is preparation for existence in the business or commercial environment in China and other countries - which is also not a very nice environment.

    They see and hear things at school, tv, movies, etc and wonder about other races - they know they're US Citizens - but they have no clue what that means since I've never really taken them "back home"...and not in any great rush.

    I teach my children there is no right and there is no wrong. Instead of labeling - try to understand the motives and then decide the relative value. Bad people can do seemingly good deeds (drug and crime lords are very philanthropic to their own neighborhoods) while good people can do seemingly bad things (parents disciplining their children). So I teach my children to look beyond the superficial and look deeper to understand and eventually predict the motive...and I constant ridicule the rubbish on television - be it Chinese soaps and serials or the rare foreign movie.

    2. Expats are not normal or eccentric by any standard. That doesn't make expats good or bad - but they're NOT really a representative cross section of a culture.

    3. The Chinese government doesn't teach hatred - but it's an unavoidable and undesirable side effect of nationalism and the government DEFINITELY encourages patriotism and nationalism - this has always been "the way" of conventional Chinese culture. As mentioned earlier - take a short look at the comments on any Yahoo US news feed. These people are somewhat educated, computer savvy - and for the most part full of hatred. I don't teach my children to love or hate - but to be aware and learn how to use each emotion - but they themselves must learn to control their emotions. This is taught to most Chinese - everyone has a family face, a school face, a work face, etc.

    4. From a business perspective - each nation or culture negotiates based on its complex culture. Based on my corporate multi-cultural experiences - I prepare my children for how to survive at the executive level in today's multinational corporate world and point out key aspects of various cultures as representative of both government and executive decision making philosophies - and hope they choose a different career path - one not so littered with evil people. Out of necessity - I look for the potential evil in people and companies - risk management.

    My children are recognized as US citizens at school despite the fact they attend local schools and are native speakers. They also occasionally experience discrimination, bullying, etc and must learn to overcome these social evils.

    Some people are blessed with euphoric lives - I'm not so naive and don't want my children to learn these disappointing lessons the hard way - if possible. So I just tell them the truth - from my perspective.

    While India and China share equally long histories, Chinese are culturally distinct and generally aggressive as a race. I hesitate to bring up the Confucian edict but it does have a long history of influence in the area of patriotism and nationalism. India is essentially a caste society - under Hinduism, they are used to domestic oppression - so replacing the Brahmins with the British didn't particularly affect the living standards of the majority of the lower castes - merely replaced one caste with another.

    I've only worked with Indians from three different castes, including a warrior caste - so am not really qualified to guess on behalf of that extremely complicated culture.

    So, yes - the world might be a nicer place if we were all friends - but I'm not interested in heroism in my personal life - I'm interested in the safety, health, happiness, and prosperity of my children. They can choose to be philanthropic or not when they've made their own fortunes.

• • Dad-of-3
    July 31, 2010
    5 posts
  • Again, thanks to all for the insightful commentary. Just a bit of clarification. My Chinese level is around upper intermediate and my children are not too far behind me. The conversation was in Chinese, so the word used was hen4. Also, after talking with my wife I realized I needed to get my facts straight. The comment was directed toward my children, not my wife and I. My son and daughter quoted their 4 year old playmate as saying, "My Mom hates you because you are foreigners [wo3 ma1ma hen4 ni3men. yin1wei4 ni3men shi4 wai4guo2ren2]."

    We also had another interesting comment from a neighborhood girl who often comes over to play. She entreated us, "When China becomes strong, would you Americans please stop bullying us? [wo3men zhong1guo2 qiang3da4 yi3hou4, qing3 ni3men mei3guo2ren2 bie2 qi1fu wo3men, hao3 bu4 hao3?]?"

    We have had plenty of interactions with overwhelmingly warm and kind people here. They seem more concerned with us looking down on them than they seem interested in judging us.

    At the same time, another portion of people remain distant in a shared context (like a meal arranged by mutual friends), even when it becomes obvious we can communicate and are reasonably aware of etiquette.

    As an adolescent (and probably before), I received somewhat unhealthy patriotic messages from my surrounding culture. Some of these were even nurtured in a religious context (which was also confusing - was I pledging allegiance to a deity or a country or both!).

    As an adult, I am grateful to friends with differing viewpoints who have educated me on their particular perspectives (even political, ethnic, or religious ones). I hope to be this kind of positive resource for others, but only if they are curious, I suppose :)

• • liwei
    July 31, 2010
    7 posts
  • Dad-of-3？！You only have 2 children: a daughter and a son. Rofl.

    BTW. There is an expat who are really naive, immature.

• • onlyone
    July 31, 2010
    93 posts
  • Liwei .we are not about to count who is mature or who is immature ! we just try to discuss an important topic .How to develop people with good manners and forgiveness how to make China great in all people opinions.How to increase respect and love in people hearts toward each others .I my self i know some foreigners who devoted their blood in Kunming several times at the same time i know some local who never done!!

• • Daniel*
    August 1, 2010
    9 posts
  • calm down,

• • liwei
    August 1, 2010
    7 posts
  • Is to lie a good manner? Is the pro-lie a good manner? I don't think China is great in all case, but in this case I have never heard that a Chinese has said he(she) hates all foreigner. The liar's motive is malicious. That will affect the psychology and the quality of life of yours, not mime.

    As you please if you appreciated the comments posted by the liars like Dearleader and Dad-of-3 (he only have 2 children, ha).

• • KuiXing
    August 1, 2010
    7 posts
  • there are only 2 children in this story but he could have another child that wasn't there holmes "Rofl"

• • Tiger
    August 1, 2010
    56 posts
  • Ha, ha. Li(e)wei (Cadre # 1) should be permanently ignored. He, he.

• • rejected_goods
    August 1, 2010
    27 posts
  • "....I have never heard that a Chinese has said he(she) hates all foreigner...."
    never? really?

    even in hong kong, mind you, a very open part of china has emerged elements of that new found exhibit xenophobic/"nationalistic" bias during the local political/universal suffrage reform debate, partly based on the preception that " look, we (china-a single party unelected government) saved the world in this GFC while all those developed countries with democratically elected government are in trouble. they (the west) have to learn from us and they better start making adjustment to our liking this time around." The wish of the Establishment to forever retain the undemocratic functional constituencies in hong kong has found a new "rationale."

    i have just finished reading a book by Ian Kershaw, i hope........um

• • Tonyaod
    August 1, 2010
    120 posts
  • Not to get personal, but Liwei sounds like an typical Chinese mentality, ignorant, xenophobic, in-denial, takes any criticism of China as an personal attack and rather than debating the issue head on, changes the focus by attacking the opponent with some unrelated issue. "China doesn't have any racists because your mother is a homosexual transvestite that likes to sleep with donkeys while wearing a panda costume." I mean really...WTF? Stop acting like a immature kid on the playground.

    Liwei, how is the number of children important in this debate. And since when is it required that a handle reflects fact? Is laotou a liar if he turned out to be an middle-age Chinese-American? Would you be shock to find out that Tiger does not have a tail, walks on two legs, and in fact very mush resembles a human and that there are other people on the planet besides onlyone?

    Maybe you haven't head of a Chinese saying they hate foreigners because, oh I don't know, you are not a foreigner and that they have no reason to tell you. Or maybe you have selective hearing. It's like religious people, Holocaust deniers, and flat-earth believers, when you confront them with facts and logic, they just stick their fingers in their ears and believe what they want to believe.

    Please do us all a favor, if you're not going to participate intelligently, then please shut your pie hole because you are not helping your cause.

    But, other than that,

    Cheers~

• • timkunming
    August 1, 2010
    64 posts
  • I feel bad for the op, because I can understand exactly how he feels. I've experienced this type of treatment on more than one occasion among acquaintances in and above my age group, late 20s and up.

    In reality it has little to do with any conscious racial bias and more to do with ignorance. I've heard the same excuses again and again about how China was forced to bend to the will of foreign colonial powers, forced to suffer humiliating defeats, allow areas of their country to be annexed, etc. The most amazing part of this entire argument is that it really doesn't prove anything! China is not special in this context, and arguably (aside from a few well-known horrific incidents) made out pretty well in the end with a global financial center and an incredible network of production and transportation infrastructure built by the Japanese.

    It's really just a scapegoat the Chinese use depending on the context of the argument. In a lot of cases you see one of two things happen when discussing anything of global significance with some Chinese (note I am not making a blanket statement about all of them). "We have 5,000 years of history and culture, so you should listen to us. We know what we're talking about." This is usually used to dismiss nearly anything an outsider mentions, regardless of whether it's "correct" by any standard of logic or not. The second is, "We've only been developing for 30 years, so you shouldn't expect so much from us," which is essentially used to excuse blatant xenophobia, disturbing social trends and official abuses...the list goes on and on.

    It's really quite interesting that the op mentions his Chinese should be considered to be upper-intermediate. You would think that this would be welcomed, but I've had experience that says otherwise. When you just get to China and can't wrap your head around tones, can't form a cogent sentence, and essentially blabber like a fool the Chinese will tell you, "Ni de Zhongwen shuo de hen hao," or something similar. A nice gesture to say the least, but I haven't figured out whether it's genuinely meant to make you feel more at ease or a bit of a jab. I guess it depends on who's making the statement!

    However, once your Chinese gets to a point that it could be called "fluent," or "really good" things start to change dramatically. Add that to being a westerner with a good grasp of any local dialect and it changes even more. You find that the compliments don't seem to come as often and when you're among them they seem to be far more cautious about what they say.

    You know too much! They don't want you to always be around because they know that you're going to catch everything they talk about, and for some reason they have some sort of instinctual need to have their secrets and be able to speak freely without having some westerner listening in. It's just a characteristic of a group of people that have been isolated for so long that it's difficult for them to accept.

    Granted with a lot of young people it seems to be getting a lot better, but there are disturbing trends as well. I've found that middle-aged Chinese tend to be far more accepting of us and more interested in learning new things. The education system has done well to encourage the young to harbor illogical resentment against outsiders and instill a sense of superiority even as the vast majority with financial means run to Australia or Canada as fast as they can.

    The coolest thing to do is to show them WHY they can like you. Chat with them in your courtyards or when you run into them on the street. Bring them some fruit or small gift and show the effort to create what could be a great friendship. You may even find this kid's mother is actually a cool person, if only a bit misled. It's worth a shot!

• • liwei
    August 1, 2010
    7 posts
  • I wish the ocean is peaceful, too, but sometimes the bias can bring about tsunami - just like the things happened in the eve of the Beijing Olympic Games and the Xizang(Tibet) Riot, and so on.

    Some people promote the Universal Values everywhere. Ha, how ridiculous and hypocritical! For instance I even don't have right to be right in this case. It's makes me disgusting to talk with the ridiculous and the hypocritical. Bye.

• • Tonyaod
    August 1, 2010
    120 posts
  • You don't have the right to be right? How hypocritical is that? You have the right to have an opinion, you have a right to state your opinion, but what makes you right? Just because you said so? And what about Dad's right and everyone else's right to be right then, huh?

    So far you haven't said anything to bolster your case, all you've done is ridicule others and now you are leaving because you are disgusted? Boohoo, are you going to take your ball with you too?

    You know what, good riddance. You've proven yourself to be nothing more than and ignorant, annoying jerk. Go get some IQ points and maybe we'll consider letting you back in.

    Have fun in where ever you are going. I'm sure there are plenty of people there to join you in your circle-jerk session.

    Cheers~

• • nicki
    August 1, 2010
    1 post
  • wow .... are all of you here American ?

• • onlyone
    August 1, 2010
    93 posts
  • Tonyaod,

    You are amazing writer with a high ability of expressing .I would like to read to you more in this forum

    Cheers~

• • Tonyaod
    August 1, 2010
    120 posts
  • Thank you onlyone. I usually don't speak out unless it's something or someone really annoys me. As you can tell by now, I can get very personal and opinionated, it's something I'm trying to control.

    Anyway, I'm glad you enjoy my diatribe and I will keep contributing whenever I feel it necessary.

    Cheers~

• • kunming tiger
    August 2, 2010
    7 posts
  • I tend to agree with tim kunming's observations of Chinese in general. I mean they often flatter you about your level of Chinese with the usual remarks yet later on in the conversation someone might make a disparaging remark about your level which wouldn't be made if they thought you could understand it. They'll usually be on their guard if they think you can follow the conversation as most of its of a personal nature anyway.

    As for the "we have 5000 years of history thing " most Chinese but not all have a poor grasp of their own history in terms of actual details its mostly a catchphrase. However few foreigners study Chinese history themselves to the level where they can converse on the topic in Chinese so its a one way conversation.

    I often hear that phrase in Chinese class from professional teachers but when challenged on specifics they usually fall silent so they don't expect a reply especially one involving detailed info on their own history.

    The Chinese will treat a fool as a fool until he proves himself otherwise as for hints on Chinese level proficiency refer to your HSK score it might not tell the whole story but it will tell most of it. I mean that's what it's there for.

    If you need to impress a Chinese with your Chinese level get a pen and piece of paper starting writing a 800 character composition which is coherent they will shut 99% of them up as its widely assumed that writing Chinese is too complex for foreigners to master. Most of them won't hesitate to tell you so either.

    I agree with the obesrvation that racism and bigotry is not limited to China in fact I run into less racism directed at me in China than in my own country. There are most likely less racists in my building than in my family.

    As somene told me once most fear is based on ignorance and suspicion and racists don't see themselves as racists.

    " Judge not that ye be not judged

    Matthew 7

    We are what we are if others choose not to accept us then that's their problem not ours.